Conversation with Recently Retired Ministers
Summary:
In this episode of the Ministry Forum Podcast, Rev. John Borthwick sits down with three retired Presbyterian ministers—Rev. Scott Sinclair, Rev. Duncan Jeffrey, and Rev. Mark Gaskin—for a candid conversation about life in ministry and the transition into retirement. Recorded live at the Sumac Centre, they reflect on the joys and challenges of pastoral work, how ministry has evolved over the years, and what they’ve learned along the way. From worship planning to pastoral care (and even the art of a good church sandwich), this discussion is full of wisdom, humor, and honest insights. Whether you’re just starting out in ministry, nearing retirement, or somewhere in between, this episode offers encouragement and practical advice for the road ahead.
Quotables:
“Someone then taught me how to prepare a scripted agenda, and as soon as I did that it didn't give anyone a chance to jump in and annoy me in the middle of the annual meeting, and the session very much the same.” - The Rev. Duncan Jeffrey
“But talking about visiting, I find the greatest privilege or pleasure in visiting is that you accumulate stories, you become part of this narrative that you weren't part of before. And it's like, what's the next episode? Are they gonna have a child? Are they gonna have a funeral? You know, it's a story of a community, and you're deeply privileged to be allowed to be in that place. And I can't think of other occupations that would really offer that opportunity.” - The Rev. Duncan Jeffrey
“But I do miss the liturgy that begins, you know, half hour before the worship does, which is the greeting of different people checking in with the music director, who you have a long relationship with. Just those few minutes before where you watch people you're familiar with and see who's seated in their normal places…That's what I missed, the continuity of gathering on Sunday morning with the same group of people. ” - The Rev. Mark Gaskin
“When you're retired, you're no longer a part of any of those teams I love that I'm a gardener and I grow wonderful things, and I'm all on my own out there, my wife and I, but that's what I miss now that I'm no longer in the game, so to speak, is I am not sitting down with somebody and creatively thinking how we can portray the story of the Good Samaritan in a way that nobody's ever done it before.” - The Rev. Scott Sinclair
“I think I changed through ministry. Those changes, I think were helpful, especially in having a family and recognizing the stress that comes with that joy and celebrations too. But the stress that comes with that, and therefore being more sympathetic to my church leaders and recognizing what might be going on in their life, especially if they shared that during a visit, other things that were going on their life, in their lives because they had whatever form of Family they were involved in,” - The Rev. Mark Gaskin
“All of a sudden, this guy you never expected to be able to do anything to do with leading worship is the guy up in the box with the machine who makes everything work, and he becomes one of the core pillars of the team. And so, I think it expanded opportunities for the laity to be in more involved in worship.” - The Rev. Duncan Jeffrey
“So, you got to get that out of your head, that when, when somebody says something negative about the way the church is going. That doesn't mean you're doing something it could be you're doing something wrong. But that's not necessarily the case.” - The Rev. Scott Sinclair
About The Rev. Scott Sinclair
Rev. Scott Sinclair’s path to ministry was anything but direct. Raised in Guelph, Ontario, he earned degrees in Wildlife Biology (University of Guelph) and Education (University of Toronto) but spent much of his early career in construction. His turning point came in his early 30s when, while deconstructing a barn, part of it collapsed. Fearing he had seriously injured a coworker, Sinclair had a moment of clarity: he no longer wanted to do this work. The next day, he visited Knox College to begin his journey into ministry.
Ordained in 1994, Sinclair served in Hagersville and Port Dover, Owen Sound (12 years), Ottawa (3 years), and finally Elmira at Gale Presbyterian Church. He also led Camp Kintail, a Presbyterian summer camp. Passionate about personal connection, he found the greatest joy not just in preaching but in one-on-one conversations and community outreach.
In 2008, Sinclair deepened his faith by walking the 800-kilometre Camino de Santiago in Spain, an experience he calls his most significant spiritual journey.
Since retiring in 2021, he enjoys gardening, music, and time with family. His daughter is a musician in Ottawa, and his son teaches in South Korea. Even in retirement, Sinclair remains dedicated to helping others grow in faith, believing that a strong church is one that actively nurtures its community—whether through worship, conversation, or even a quiet meditative garden.
About The Rev. Duncan Jeffrey
Rev. Duncan Jeffrey dedicated his career to serving the church and fostering community. His journey to ordained ministry was shaped by years of hands-on service within the Presbyterian Church, beginning as Coordinator of Community and Youth at McNab Street Presbyterian Church (Hamilton) from 1990 to 1997. In this role, he led church groups, ran a basketball team, and supported individuals with special needs—experiences that deepened his call to ministry.
Encouraged by his congregation, Jeffrey pursued his theological education at Knox College while continuing his church work. In 1997, he began serving Malvern Presbyterian Church (Scarborough) as a lay missionary until his ordination in 1998. His ministry then took him to St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church (Bermuda) for eight years, before he returned to Canada to serve at Richmond Hill Presbyterian Church, where he remained for 14.5 years until his retirement in 2022.
Known for his love of worship planning, Jeffrey had a deep appreciation for hymnody and liturgy, carefully curating music that enriched the spiritual life of his congregations. He was also passionate about church events, believing that fellowship and shared meals—be it a Burns Supper or a community dinner—were vital to church life.
In retirement, Jeffrey remains connected to ministry while enjoying recreation, music, and time with family. His decades of service reflect a lifelong commitment to nurturing faith, fostering belonging, and celebrating the traditions that bring people together.
About The Rev. Mark B. Gaskin
Rev. Mark Bennett Gaskin’s 38-year ministry was marked by dedicated service, deep relationships, and a love for pastoral care. Originally from Regina, Saskatchewan, he later moved to Georgetown, Ontario, before pursuing theological studies at Trinity College and Knox College (U of T), earning his Master of Divinity in 1984.
Ordained that same year, Gaskin began his ministry in Alberton, Prince Edward Island, followed by pastorates in Exeter, Brantford, and Cambridge, Ontario. His final call was to St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church (Cambridge), where he helped lead the congregation through an amalgamation, forming Westside Presbyterian Church, where he served until his retirement in 2021.
Gaskin found great joy in pastoral visiting, believing that true ministry happens in everyday conversations and shared experiences—whether in a church pew, a cornfield, or even on a lobster boat. He also loved the fellowship of church life, from community meals to music nights. Though he didn’t consider himself particularly “high Presbyterian,” he deeply cherished leading baptisms and communion services.
Now retired, Gaskin enjoys cooking, making jam, playing the ukulele (he proudly knows 12 chords!), and watching Tom Hanks movies. He and his wife, Kathy, cherish time with their three children and six grandchildren. Though no longer in full-time ministry, his passion for faith, connection, and good food continues to shape his life and those around him.
Additional Resources:
Come As A Child: Children's Sermons to See and Hear (books are no longer in print, but if you connect with him you may be able to snag a copy)
The Presbyterian Church in Canada Pension and Benefits Office
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel.
I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
Today we have a mini ministry Forum Podcast, first a live on location at the magnificent sumac center in Mountain Grove, Ontario, with a panel of friends and ministry who have made it to retirement, our guests are a part of a cohort of ministers who have gone into the woods annually for over a decade for a time of rest and revitalization, sometimes learning, and of course, with lots of laughs, even a few tears, our pilgrimage to sumac has been a touchstone in our lives and certainly a help in the practice of ministry.
I'm delighted to share the wisdom of this group with the Ministry forum audience, and to have the opportunity to have this conversation. Our conversation is mostly going to be framed around retirement or maybe a bit of looking back on ministry a long service. Each of our three guests have been in ministry in the Presbyterian Church in Canada for quite a long time, collectively serving, probably for something in the amount of maybe, maybe 80 or 90 years, all total together. And so I'm looking forward to having this conversation with them, hearing a little bit about what recent retirement might look like and what ministry was like for them, and hopefully that'll be an interesting listen for you in the ministry forum audience.
So welcome to Duncan Jeffrey, Scott Sinclair, and Mark Gaskin to the ministry Forum Podcast. Say hi to the nice people, you all. “Hi nice people. Hello, afternoon”.
Let's start with each of you. Maybe taking a little bit of an opportunity, doesn't have to be a long journey, just a bit of where you went to seminary when you were ordained, how long you served in ministry, where you might have served, and then where was the last thing you did, and where you retired from. Maybe we could just go around the room, and we'll start with Scott.
[Scott Sinclair]
Scott Sinclair, retired, retired from Elmira, Yale Presbyterian Church in Elmira before that, though a long history in the church, I think, father, grandfather, uncle, all Presbyterian ministers, couple of uncles, actually.
But my pastorates were before Elmira was in Ottawa. Before that, the longest pastorate I had was 12 years in Owen Sound as Associate Minister at St Andrews Presbyterian Church there. And my first pastorate was Hagersville and Port Dover. But during those years, too, I took the long route studying at Knox College, because I was also working as director of camp Kintail and consultant to youth ministries for the Synod of what was then southwestern Ontario—No Hamilton, London, sorry. So that in a nutshell, that has been my ministry history
[John Borthwick]
And about how many years?
[Scott Sinclair]
Well, if you're going to, and I am going to count camp, I mean, I started as director of Camp Iona, it would have been like in 1976 or 77 I directed camp Iona, then in and out of, you know, para church ministries and things like that. I started in port in in Hagersville and Port Dover as an ordained minister of Word and Sacrament, that was 1994. Do in that sense, Minister of Word and Sacrament, 1994 to 2021
[John Borthwick]
Excellent. That's great. Thanks. Scott and Duncan. Jeffrey,
[Duncan Jeffrey]
A bit like Scott, I worked for the church for a long time before I was actually called to a church. I served McNabb Street Presbyterian Church as their coordinator of community and youth from 1990 until 97’ and that entailed running various church groups, the basketball team, driving the church van, had a group for singles with special needs and just bits and pieces, basically anything the minister didn't really want to do. And that worked very well. And during that time, it discerned a call to ministry and started taking classes at Knox College. And the people at church were gracious enough to support me through that almost entire time. Then, in 97’ I was hired by after graduating, partially graduating from Knox, I was hired by Malvern as a lay missionary, until I gained the academic credits that permitted me to be ordained. So, I was ordained, really, in 98’ to Malvern Presbyterian Church in Scarborough. In 2000 I was called to St Andrews in Bermuda, where I spent eight years. And then I was called from Bermuda to Richmond Hill Presbyterian Church, where I spent 14 and a half years. That brings us, more or less to the president. I retired, February 2022.
[John Borthwick]
And Mark Gaskin.
[Mark Gaskin]
Listening to Scott and Duncan, I realized mine was a little bit more straightforward in I only took a year off between my undergraduate and starting at Knox College, so that year, I traveled and worked, and had always felt a call to ministry, at least since high school. So, I did act on that and attended Knox College and graduated there in 1984. I served an ordained mission appointment a lamb for four years in Alberton PEI. Called to Exeter, Ontario, there six years. Then a church in Brantford for close to 14 and then the last 10 years in Cambridge, Ontario, the call was to St Andrews. But during that time, we did an amalgamation with St Giles, and so I finished my ministry at Westside Presbyterian Church in Cambridge retired two and a half years ago. So altogether, 38 years in ministry and two and a half years retired.
[John Borthwick]
Amazing! Wow, yeah, great. Just curious, and anyone can answer; as you look back on your years in ministry, what would you say you most enjoyed, or what was your favorite thing to do, most specifically as a minister of Word and Sacrament, what was your What was your favorite thing? Or what did you most enjoy about that season of ministry?
[Duncan Jeffrey]
I enjoyed worship planning, particularly. I enjoyed picking hymns because it was my good fortune to have organists who are never Presbyterians. So, I had a Catholic organist, I had a seventh day Adventist organist, and they really had no idea what Presbyterians sing. Plus, I had a background in the Church of Scotland. So, I knew the Scottish hymns, I knew the American hymns, and I knew the Canadian hymns, and I love hymns. So that that part of the job was very rewarding, and the creative urge to express yourself in whatever way you're going to express yourself during a sermon.
[Scott Sinclair]
I certainly wouldn't consider myself a high Presbyterian or very liturgical, but I would say that my favorite part of worship leading were the communion and the baptism services. For some reason I have trouble reconciling that, because I don't think I'm that type of guy, but I really, in retrospect, say looking back, I mean, having been out of ministry for the number of years I have, when I look back and I say, I kind of really found a spiritual connection in doing the sacrament of the communion. Not so much the baptism, because there was much more that could go wrong at the baptism than at the communion. But still, that idea that it is, it is one of the sacraments, and that seemed to feed my soul. I love that for myself.
[Mark Gaskin]
I think it would have been two things, certainly the pastoral visiting. And I guess it's partly because that was certainly expected in the beginning part of my ministry, a two-point charge in the in the west end of Prince Edward Island, but that also got me into experiences that I wouldn't have had otherwise. So one of the pastoral visits was lobster fishing with members of the Church. Corn fields, potato fields that carried on in Exeter. I also made a point of visiting some if they were open to it, the Pastoral visits took places at their place of business or where they worked. And that was always interesting. So, it's not by accident that I'm still doing pastoral visiting on behalf of a church in Guelph. So, it would be pastoral visiting, and then the certainly the last 10 years, were the fellowship times. The West Side church had a strong ministry in that lots of reasons to get together for fellowship. They there was some fundraising, but the majority of it was fellowship. Cornrows, spaghetti dinners, music nghts, talent nights, so I really came to appreciate those aspects of ministry.
[John Borthwick]
And then the other side of it, what would you say were your greatest challenges? Or what in ministry, what did you enjoy? Maybe the least, what were the things that were like that for you?
[Scott Sinclair]
You know, I don't mind admitting encounter to mark. I didn't like the pastoral visiting. I always felt under too much stress to do that, too much pressure to do that during a time, I think, and this might come up later on. It's things that have changed in ministry. I do remember that the pastoral visiting was probably 80% of my father's job. As a child seeing him going out, coming back and for dinner, and no, and he would, you know, he didn't tell us all the secrets, but he would say, “No, I was out visiting all afternoon, and I saw three families in the afternoon”, sort of thing. I did sense during the span of my ministry that I think people still wanted us to do pastoral ministry, but they didn't want us to come to their home sort of thing, or their privacy issues started coming and playing a more important role, which was kind of stressed to us, I think. At Knox College, if anywhere else you know, and so I just found there's too much to be, too much anxiety in my own spirit. And which doesn't mean I didn't do it. I still did do it, but it just wasn’t it was one of the things I did not find great joy in, notwithstanding that I had great visits. I didn't get to go lobster fishing, but, you know, had great visits and uplifting things. But it still, when I look back, if you're asking me what I didn't like, I'd say that's the first thing that comes to mind, and that was
[Marl Gaskin]
always there too, that as much as I enjoyed it, I felt other pressures to get on with the other aspects of ministry, which can't be neglected. And my style of visiting did change over the years. I started to recognize that people didn't need me to be there for an hour and 15 minutes, that shorter visits could be just as effective and helpful and I started, especially in the last 5 to 10 years, telephone visits became that was a visit.
[Scott Sinclair]
Well, your last years were pandemic
[Mark Gaskin]
Exactly so that those that emphasized that, but I had already started doing telephone visits before and depending on the circumstances, that's actually what the person was looking for. So that was helpful. And then if there were challenging or least favorite, and this isn't original observation, it was the administration, which, again, with time and guidance, certainly from colleagues, I became more efficient at it. And that helped a lot, and I recognized how to do things quickly but still correctly, and how to draw on what other ministers had done and used that and also starting, I didn't fill in the statistical form at all in my last 15 years. I looked around and said, the Treasurer can do this part, the Clerk can do this part. I should just sign make sure my name and address and phone numbers correct, and that was fine, so I learned to be better at the part that I liked the least.
[Duncan Jeffrey]
very much, administration. You know, I my first career was as a classroom teacher High School, and you don't really have much call for management. We said, managing your students. But Kirk sessions and finance meetings and annual meetings, especially annual meeting, I don't know about other ministers, but I used to wake up in the morning the annual meeting with a kind of pit in my stomach.
Someone then taught me how to prepare a scripted agenda, and as soon as I did that it didn't give anyone a chance to jump in and annoy me in the middle of the annual meeting, and the session very much the same. I realized that the aim was we were going to get out of there in an hour and a half, and we made that happen. So, I continued to dislike it, but for shorter periods of time.
But talking about visiting, I find the greatest privilege or pleasure in visiting is that you accumulate stories, you become part of this narrative that you weren't part of before. And it's like, what's the next episode? Are they gonna have a child? Are they gonna have a funeral? You know, it's a story of a community, and you're deeply privileged to be allowed to be in that place. And I can't think of other occupations that would really offer that opportunity.
[John Borthwick]
That's a beautiful way of putting it. Dunc, yeah, yeah.
Is there anything in particular having been retired for a couple years or a few years now that you actually miss about serving as a congregational minister, is there, is there specific things that you miss not being able to do or participate in in congregational ministry, but you did in congregational ministry,
[Mark Gaskin]
I do miss the continuity around worship and the fellowship that follows. I love the pulpit supply that I've been able to provide for the last two and a half years. And I love it because of the variety. I've been able to do styles of worship, although I had some variety in my own ministry, just going to other churches and which have some similarities to what I did, and some are quite different. So I've enjoyed the variety of worship during my retirement. But I do miss the liturgy that begins, you know, half hour before the worship does, which is the greeting of different people checking in with the music director, who you have a long relationship with. Just those few minutes before where you watch people you're familiar with and see who's seated in their normal places… And then what occurs afterwards, the second or last part of the liturgy during the coffee hour and touchstones and doing some of the visiting there that finishes off the visit that began earlier in the week or leads into the one you're going to do in the Next week or month. That's what I missed, the continuity of gathering on Sunday morning with the same group of people.
[Scott Sinclair]
I'd agree with that, but add to it and again, counter again to what you guys said earlier about administration, because I was very blessed in two out of my four pastorates to have a strong team ministry, and I really love the creative team meetings. We'd be sitting in an office or around the kitchen table or whatever, you know. In June team getting together and deciding what's the Christmas schedule, right, and then what's the theme, and who's going to do which services. When you're retired, you're no longer a part of any of those teams I love that I'm a gardener and I grow wonderful things, and I'm all on my own out there, my wife and I, but that's what I miss now that I'm no longer in the game, so to speak, is I am not sitting down with somebody and creatively thinking how we can portray the story of the Good Samaritan in a way that nobody's ever done it before. We came up with some really great stuff when I was in a team, and I come up with really great stuff as a gardener. Love those pears, but it's, you know, that's what I miss having not been in ministry now for a few years.
[Duncan Jeffrey]
I think the special events but all the churches I served were lively. There'd be something like the burn supper and, you know, the ritual slaughter of the haggis, the bagpipe music, the dancing, and you know. The special events kind of punctuated the whole church year, like festivals. I mean, they weren't religious festivals, but there are definitely festivals in terms of the fellowship of the church. And of course, as Scott mentioned, you get fed spaghetti, haggis, roast beef, sometimes international food, and that
[Duncan Jeffrey]
Actually, I grade churches by their egg salad sandwiches. Can I say Presbyterian women? Can I like to say this only I find the only Presbyterian women can make a proper egg salad sandwich. I'm a connoisseur here.
[John Borthwick]
My observation is that church seems to be the only place where you get salmon sandwiches. I don't know where else you get a salmon sandwich?
[Mark Gaskin]
I not. I'm going to say that about the minced ham. Have you ever seen minced ham anywhere other than a funeral? And I love those. Oh, and I would do funerals to get the minced ham sandwich. These
[Scott Sinclair]
are, these are astute observations.
[John Borthwick]
This is what we went into ministry for egg salad, salmon and minced ham sandwiches when I was ordained, way back when, a group of 20-somethings who I was hanging out with, who weren't churched at all when they saw the reception and there was these little diamond shaped sandwiches, every one of them came to me and said, “Do you eat like this, like, all the time?” And I'm like, “yeah”. And they're like, “This is amazing.” I'm like, Yeah, I guess Sure. Okay. It didn't make them want to come to church on a regular basis, but it was an interesting experience for them.
[Duncan Jeffrey]
One more recollection of baked goods. Now this, hopefully the last one is the term squares. I'd never come across this term until I came to Canada and there was a broadsheet that went out to bring your best squares for whatever event it was. And I was bewildered by the array and the variety things you never thought would go together, but lemon and sour creamer. I mean, it's like they were out doing each other in originality. And sad to say, I do think that's probably a lost art, but indeed, we were privileged to enjoy it.
[John Borthwick]
It's where a number of people brought their creativity, the baked goods and the sandwiches. That's awesome. So over the years, other than sandwiches and baked goods, how would you say you noticed a change in congregational ministry? In your experience, was there anything specific that you'd want to name that sort of stood out from when you started to when you retired? There was this or that or the other thing that was like, wow, that really changed over, over the period of ministry I was in,
[Duncan Jeffrey]
I think in particular at Richmond Hill, which was quite a formal church with a pipe organ and grand piano and a sizable choir. Music was always a large part. But then COVID happened, and we had to start doing things very differently. And through the whole experience of COVID, that church reinvented itself, and, you know, introduced screens, words up, microphones, everything was used. I'd say, produced a much more professional kind of worship in order to serve all the people that were, you know, watching us on their screens. And I think that's probably the lasting contribution of COVID to the church culture.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, it certainly pushed a lot of congregations to embrace technology quickly. Whereas if we had said to people, hey, we're every so often going to put worship on an online platform called Zoom, and you're just going to join us and be on a rectangle for our Sunday services. I don't sense people would have fully embraced that if it wasn't for the sake of adapting in a pandemic, for sure. Yeah, any other things that stand out as a big change in ministry,
[Mark Gaskin]
I don't think I was as insightful as I've heard some of my colleagues be, especially if we've shared the same decades of service. My changes, I always seem to be personal. So, starting ministry as a single person, and then getting married, then having children. And then children that really enjoyed camp ministry and now grandchildren who are involved in churches are going with their parents. So, I've always attributed that, and that's why this pencil will be the shortest I give is I think I changed through ministry. Those changes, I think were helpful, especially in having a family and recognizing the stress that comes with that joy and celebrations too. But the stress that comes with that, and therefore being more sympathetic to my church leaders and recognizing what might be going on in their life, especially if they shared that during a visit, other things that were going on their life, in their lives because they had whatever form of Family they were involved in,
[John Borthwick]
Anything for you? Scott,
[Scott Sinclair]
The obvious one, I think, is technology. But I had a, I think, a healthy relationship to technology. One of my undergraduates is Bachelor of Education. So trained or taught orienting to the idea, how do you teach something? How do you get something in a format that people like? And so actually, something I should have bragged about in the introduction is, as well as being the minister in these places, I also published three books of telling that children's story, following the lectionary, how to tell the children's story time in church, okay? Three years a different story for everybody. It's always an object lesson. I bring in a walnut, and I talk about this and say how it's got to do with the growing of the seed. I bring in a. A balloon and talk about, you know, how this is the spirit sort of thing, buy the books rather than me go into it at this point. But, um.
[Scott Sinclair]
Idea was that was part of my preaching style too. Was because of as an educator, how am I getting the message across in different ways. So, over the time of my ministry, when I started, I could use an overhead projector, because that's what you used at that time.
But in the early aughts, somebody came up with this idea of this, this thing called PowerPoint, and I jumped right on that. Figured, okay, oh, and wow, look what you can do with PowerPoint. It can come in on an angle, and you can put a picture up there that fades in and fade, for the listeners I'm moving my hands at this time in an expressive way, technology of the podcast. I mean, you know that that's the most recent thing.
But I when the first time one of those computer projectors showed up in ministry, it blew us all away in the office, we think this is the neatest, keenest thing, which I now can equate to your first bicycle. Meh, you know, everybody's got them now, right? And over the time that my preaching changed in such a way that it would accommodate not dependent upon a PowerPoint presentation. But there was hardly ever a sermon that I wrote once that was available that did not have some sort of image going on behind me on the screen and when I went to a church that did not have a screen that could do that, within a month, we had the screen and we had the projector, because that became my style.
And so when the world made us go to something like pre-recorded services during pandemic, I think when I started in ministry, there's I would have said, that's not being a minister, that's not preaching, doing it online. And by the time pandemic came around, I said, this is how you do it. We're on. We were on zoom the first Sunday that churches were closed, and within the next month, we were on YouTube. That's not me, because I don't know how to do that. That's I had people in one of those teams who know how to do that. And I said, and I can, I would love to work with that. And I don't think I could have done that when I started in the 90s. So, technology made a very significant change to the way I preached over those 25 years.
[Duncan Jeffrey]
I also found that technology expands your leadership team. All of a sudden, this guy you never expected to be able to do anything to do with leading worship is the guy up in the box with the machine who makes everything work, and he becomes one of the core pillars of the team. And so, I think it expanded opportunities for the laity to be in more involved in worship.
[John Borthwick]
As you think back, as you're thinking, back to the wealth of experience you've had in your ministry, and maybe back to your early days of ministry as well. Would you have any advice or words of wisdom for that younger version of yourself? What would you tell the younger version of yourself when they were starting out as you've come to the conclusion of that season of life, what would you be telling them?
[Duncan Jeffrey]
First plan your vacations. Second, guard your days off without any apology. Third, never commit to paper anything that would be harmful. Better to say it out loud
[John Borthwick]
Wow. Okay, interesting others,
[Mark Gaskin]
I'm so I'm still processing yours. Why didn't you tell me those things when, when I was a younger self? I know I would say to my younger self, relax, your initial flight or flight. I know it's supposed to be fighter, your initial reaction of running away or getting away from the problem or take a breath. Let some time go by. Get some rest. Sleepless nights are not going to help. Because I was unaware of how many problems would resolve themselves. People would figure out a way and or the problem, once everybody had cooled down, there were viable solutions, helpful suggestions. And so, I wish I had been more aware of that process for the first 10 or 15 years. I certainly figured that out midway through my ministry and benefited from just, let's get back to this.
[Scott Sinclair]
Yeah, well, I think it might have been referring back to what I said earlier, as being involved in enough team ministries I had other people you could blame things on. That's a, you know, that's a flippant way to say what I want to say about that, you know, a younger self. I should not have been thinking it's more about me, okay? And I think I was good at that early on in ministry, because I know that by the time I got to about 10 years or 15 years of ministry, I knew I don't care. I do not care that the Sunday school does not have 50 kids in it. That's not about me. And I don't care that. You can tell me that there were 150 people in the sanctuary 10 years ago, and there's only 75 now. I know I could say that's not about me. But early on, when any somebody would say that on session, I would take that personally, and that would keep me up that night, thinking, what can I do? And because when, why I'm up at night is because I know there's nothing I can do. So, you got to get that out of your head, that when, when somebody says something negative about the way the church is going. That doesn't mean you're doing something it could be you're doing something wrong. But that's not necessarily the case. That even if you're this the single minister in a small, rural, 20-member church, you're the only staff person there, and even if you know that you got the organist or the music director that phones it in, sort of thing—lone wolf out there, the fact that things aren't going perfectly is not necessarily you, and so just be sincere.
Being a minister during the to the early 2000s and up, the big issue is what we call the worship wars. And I don't know if we still use that term, but it was the conflict between the organ led Blue Book of hymns and the guitars and drums and bringing in the stuff from songs CCLI. That's, you know, and I, I'm not going to say that we handled it perfectly in my church experience, but, but we did handle it in a sense, and by then, though I'd been in ministry long enough to be able to say, I know these there's a lot of people that want that type of music. There's a lot of people that want that type of music. It's not about me whether or not we pick that type of music. What it is about me is when I and the other Minister leader, worship leaders, in that situation, we got to pick what we think is sincere. This is the music that I think I want to sing. This is the scripture that I sincerely believe should be used at this time. And I'm not holding a gun to anybody's head saying you've got to come and sing these songs with me, or you've got to come and listen to my sermon, because if you don't like the music that my church is doing, there's six other churches in town try them out, sort of thing. It's not about me, and I believe that I would have slept a lot better and been a much better father to my children, had I been able to disassociate myself from a lot of the angst in the church that I thought was maybe my fault that way. I thought I was supposed to fix you're not supposed to fix it.
[Duncan Jeffrey]
I used to like to say these changes are part of history. They're sociological. They're not your fault. They're not my fault.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, nice. Well, let's talk a little bit about retirement for ministry leaders that are looking ahead to retirement. Maybe a ministry leader like me, what would you advise that they keep in mind or prepare for as they're as they're looking ahead? What should they be thinking about?
[Duncan Jeffrey]
Prepare to be very busy. Because I find that people who are retiring at our kind of age group are in demand to be supply preachers, in demand to be interim moderators. And you can really be as active as you wish to be but try to avoid the danger of being as active as you were when you were a full time minister, because you need to be enjoying your retirement, recreation, healthy walks, that sort of thing. But I think certainly in the next 10 years of our church is alive, you're going to see an increased reliance on retired ministers.
[Scott Sinclair]
When my father retired, my line to him was, I know that you're going to keep on doing all the same stuff without the temptation of a stipend. But in all seriousness, along that said, I would say to as you're approaching that stage where you are going to be retiring, at least, don't plan on doing nothing. If your hobby is gardening, you know, grab that. Do it. You know, if you're going to travel, don't wait if you're going to build a house, whatever you know, have something. I think it's a big mistake for all of us to say, all I want to do is sit at home and relax. Because if you've had that lifestyle and job where you've been in charge of things, where you've had that responsibility of people's worship experience for, you know, 50 times a year. And if you think you're going to be comfortable doing nothing, that's you know, don't, don't plan on doing nothing.
[Mark Gaskin]
whatever hobbies you hope to take up in your retirement and I received this advice in the last five years of ministry, actually start them while you're working. My mastery of ukulele playing—a humble brag and rock painting those I began before, and then I had two or three other hobbies, once I make this time available, I'll add them. I've actually forgotten what those were, because I just have time for rock painting and ukulele playing and then all the other things that we are asked to do by the Church, which are, you know, we can say no to, but we don't want to for whatever reason, usually a healthy reason to be just to be helpful, and then additional family time that that's great. So, yeah, plan to be busy. Plan to do things you enjoy with hobbies and, and also, you'll have a bit more time to gather with colleagues. and that has been that's been wonderful
[Duncan Jeffrey]
And I think you have more time to get healthy. You can, you can afford to spend more time you used to spend driving around in the car, going to work and coming back. That's all found time. And you can look after your own health and ensure you're around to help as retired clergy for hopefully many years to come.
[John Borthwick]
Interesting, okay, what was helpful to you as you prepared for retirement or went through that process of retiring from restoring church in Canada, were there helpful things along the way that were provided for you, or you were pointed to…
[Scott Sinclair]
I had no trouble approaching a recently retired couple nearby to my church before announcing it to anybody in the church, going to these people in confidence and saying, “I think I Should, do you think I should?” And of course, they wouldn't tell me whether or not they thought I should, but they were a good foil. Is that the word they were a good people to bounce off asking the reasons why I think I should retire at that time. Because I did. I it should be mentioned. I retired at age 62 three years earlier than you know you're supposed to according to our culture would. And so it was not expected that I was going to do it then, but it was just felt right to me, but I talking it over with other clergy, not in the sense of getting them to tell me how to do it, but just to have a council session as to, you know, why am I doing it, and is it a good idea at this time? And that was very, that was very helpful to me.
[John Borthwick]
Anybody else?
[Duncan Jeffrey]
Well, my congregation was so delighted that I was retiring that they threw me not one, but two parties. With different themes, excellent. Yeah, one of them was a New Orleans jazz party. I don't know what they thought I might be doing in retirement but maybe going to New Orleans. Okay,
[John Borthwick]
Okay, what do you wish someone would have said to you long before you retired? I suppose about retirement like what did? What do you wish someone would have said to you something?
[Mark Gaskin]
and I this may be in contrast to others, not these two good friends and colleagues of mine, but others, it will come sooner than you ever expected. I cannot believe those 38 years went as quickly as they did die. I understand there are days, weeks and maybe even a month where it seems like it's never going but I wish somebody had just said halfway through it's going to enjoy this time, it'll come retirement and I stayed longer a couple of years past 65 it still came sooner than I was expecting.
[John Borthwick]
Were there any resources that you were pointed to, or connections that were made as a Presbyterian Church in Canada minister as you. Prepared that next step. Remind me of the process. I think you're I think you're supposed to let the clerk of presbytery know you're going to retire, technically before your congregation knows. Most ministers probably don't do that, because they'd like to tell the people that they're with they're about to retire or at least give them a heads up. And then there's that whole process that we have around processing a retirement at the presbytery level from our pension and benefits our national office. Is there, is there things that people could expect, or is there things that people might want to reach out for?
[Scott Sinclair]
You know, they seem to know what they're doing. You know, I think I just even that, even the clerk of presbyteries, and you know that they're humans, but things could go wrong, but I found it a very seamless process. Just to tell people it's time; this is what's happening. The clerk did the right thing. Church offices did the right thing. I got forms, money started showing up, but so what I would say, though that doesn't come from the church, is, I mean, the reason I felt I could do it at age 62 is I had a financial advisor from age 45 and at age 55 he was saying, “Scott, you could probably retire at this point, be comfortable. If you leave it for another few years, you can retire, and you'll be there'll be more money.” But, you know, and he was just advising me, a good financial advisor, was advising me for many years, and so at least I had that confidence that here's somebody who knows money, because I don't, here's somebody who knows money. And that released me from a lot of anxiety about whether or not my wife and I are going to be able to support ourselves. And so, I would highly recommend that that if you have not any minister at whatever age, if you know not already have a financial advisor, they are as important to you as a good doctor, and they're easier to get.
[Mark Gaskin]
And the I would agree with Scott that the process and paperwork, both at presbytery and at Pension Board is it was seamless and not difficult to maneuver, I found, and this isn't going to be helpful to all listeners. But the my wife Kathy, belonged to a large pension, an Ontario pension plan and I attended both in person, and then on Zoom, the seminars they ran, and that did a lot to I'm pretty sure that's where I got the advice about if you're going to have a hobby, start it now while you're working. I know it eased concerns in addition to my financial manager, their breakdown of expenses that will decrease so they helped with the financial picture, also just the information they shared. Gathering information. I think I'm saying the same thing as Scott. Then it's there's a lot out there, so just go after it. Yep
[Duncan Jeffrey]
It may have been the fact that COVID kind of interrupted the whole cycle for all of us. But I seem to remember, at one time there was a planned retreat for ministers about to retire. I don't know if it's the presbytery level or the national church level, and either that has fallen into disuse or it just got lost in the kind of confusion through COVID. But I do think that some kind of, you know, a residential weekend or even a day long, you know, meeting at Knox College, for example, would probably be useful in addressing things that we don't think we need to know, but we need to know.
[John Borthwick]
For sure. Yeah, anything else that I that I haven't asked you, but wish, wish I did anything that comes to mind? Like final thoughts to those who might be listening, wondering about retirement, wondering about life in ministry, listening to some seasoned veterans of ministry.
[Mark Gaskin]
No, your questions were well thought out, yeah, and I certainly have appreciated this chance to both to to hear myself talk, but also to hear Scott and Duncan.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, this has been a neat format, yeah, thank you. Just have a conversation.
[Duncan Jffrey]
I like about one. It's been very helpful. Thank you
[Scott Sinclair]
would have been nicer, though, at a pub, indeed,
Musings about going to a pub
[Scott Sinclair]
And we thank you. John, good of you to put this sort of thing together and for your background technical team that then makes us sound good. This is, this is. We do like the work you're doing, following your podcast, stuff like that, and it's appreciated by a lot of people. Thank
[John Borthwick]
you. Thank you. Thank you all. Take care.
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