Summary

John Borthwick sits down with Knox College's Principal, Rev. Dr. Ernest van Eck, for a fascinating conversation about his journey from a small mining town in South Africa to becoming the principal of Knox College. Ernest shares stories from his days as an aspiring CPA (yes, you read that right!), his athletic accomplishments, and how a last-minute calling to ministry led him down a completely different path.

Quotables

• "People are more important than issues... I believe you must lead in collaboration with the people you're leading." – Ernest van Eck emphasizes his leadership philosophy.

• "You can't have a college just for the sake of a college... You must be involved in the church and the community." – Ernest van Eck speaking about the purpose of Knox College

• "I think it's a kingdom thing, not our thing, and we are here to serve" – Ernest van Eck reflecting on his vision for Knox College.

Find us on your favourite podcast app or player, just search “Ministry Forum”

Episode Notes and Additional Resources:

• Knox College, Toronto - Centre of Lifelong Learning

• Toronto School of Theology (TST)

• Graduate Theological Union (GTU)

• Society of Biblical Literature

• The Parables of Jesus the Galilean: Stories of a Social Prophet by Ernest van Eck

• Knox Counselling Centre

About Dr. Ernest van Eck

Ernest van Eck joined the Knox College faculty as principal and professor of New Testament in 2022.

Professor van Eck (BA, BA [Hon], MA [Greek], BD, MDiv, DD) obtained all but the BA degree from the University of Pretoria, South Africa. His two master’s degrees focused on different aspects of space used in secular and religious narratives. For his Doctor of Divinity degree, obtained in 1993, his thesis focused on a social-scientific interpretation of ideological/political use of space in the gospel of Mark.

He has authored 55 and co-authored 34 peer reviewed articles and 13 chapters in international publications; his latest monograph, focusing on parable research, is titled The parables of Jesus the Galilean: Stories of a social prophet. He has successfully supervised 39 master’s and 26 PhD students. Professor Van Eck is member of the New Testament Society of South Africa, the USA-based Context Group, Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, and the international Society of Biblical Literature. Professor van Eck has been the assistant-editor of HTS Teologiese/Theological Studies since 2021.

Follow us on Social:

Transcript

[Introduction]

Welcome to the ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel.

I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen.

Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
 

[John Borthwick]

So welcome. It's a pleasure to have the Reverend Dr. Ernest Van Eck joining me on today's second episode of the Ministry Forum Podcast. The first one was all about me, featuring me, talking about me. So this time, I thought I'd talk to someone else.

Maybe Ernest will share what he thinks about me. Just kidding, if you'll indulge me, Ernest. I know that this is how you like to be called earnest. So if you'd indulge me, I'll open this particular podcast with Knox College's land acknowledgement. So let's, let's hear the land acknowledgement.

We begin by acknowledging the traditional keepers of the stolen lands on which Knox College is currently located. This land is the traditional land of the Huron Wendat, the Petun First Nations, the Seneca and the Mississaugas of the credit River. It has been a site of human activity for 15,000 years. We also acknowledge that Toronto is covered by treaty 13, signed with the Mississaugas of the credit and the Williams treaties signed with multiple Mississaugas and Chippewa bands, we pay tribute to the living legacy of all First Nations peoples of Canada. As we strengthen ties with the communities we serve through listening and learning, we acknowledge that we are all treaty people and accept responsibility for honouring our relations today, Toronto is still the home to many indigenous people from across Turtle Island, and we are grateful to have the opportunity to work in the community and on this territory.

So welcome, Ernest. It's great to be with you, and great to have this opportunity to have a conversation with you. We talk a lot, which is lovely. It's great to have it recorded and to maybe get to know you a little better, and also talk a little bit more about being a principal of a college and all those kinds of things. So maybe, if we'd begin with you telling our ministry forum listeners a little bit more about yourself, how you would want to be introduced. Yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, Ernest, and

[Ernest van Eck]

Gladly, John. So I'm from my accent you can hear, I'm from South Africa. So I was born in South Africa. I was born in a small, small town in a free state province, and then we moved to the north west province when I was about 10 years 11 years old. Most of my life, we lived in that small town. It was a mining community. It was the town where they were mining iron ore and then in my, secondary school years, I wanted to become a CPA, and I was kind of good at school, good at math and good at accountancy and things like that, subjects like .

And then in my in grade 11, I just one day, I just felt called to the ministry, and lot of opposition from teachers and family members and friends and so forth, but I decided that in spite of all this opposition, I going to pursue my call. There was a problem, though, I didn't really have money to study, but luckily, I was kind of an above average athlete. So I got a nice scholarship from University of Stellenbosch and then I went to Stellenbosch and I did my bachelor's degree there. It was called the BA admission, because it admitted you to the baccalaureus divinity, the Divinity studies degree. And for that, I had to move to Pretoria, because my denomination, you were required to do your theoretical studies at the University of Pretoria. And there I, because of my lecturer in New Testament studies, I actually fell in love again with Biblical languages. So I decided to pursue an honors degree in the biblical languages, Hebrew and Greek. And then I realized, you know, it's for me, it studies nice things. So I did a masters in Greek. And then after my studies, my Bachelors degree in theology, I did a master's degree in theology, and eventually I did a PhD, and I was so was very lucky to get a really good scholarship. So I went to the GTU in Berkeley, and I finished my PhD there. And then, before that - that was in 1992 - in 1984 I was ordained as a minister. My first charge was a student congregation. I did that for five years, and then I was called to like a normal suburban church, and I and I'm ministered there for 17 years, until I went to the university. So borderless. That is what I did in my life in South Africa,

[John Borthwick]
You said you received an athletic scholarship. What was your sport? What did you do?

[Ernest van Eck]
I was, I was a tech athlete. I did middle distance running. I did quite well. As a junior, I held this South African record in the 2000 meters steeplechase event. And then when I became a senior, I kind of did well in the what I was at Stellenbosch university, because my father is Dutch, the Dutch government asked me if I was willing to become a Dutch citizen, to run for the team in the Olympic in the Olympics. But at that stage, I was very much in love and I wanted to finish my studies, so I declined to offer. And looking back, I'm glad I didn't do it.

[John Borthwick]
Wow, interesting. That's amazing. So can you tell us a little bit more about your journey to becoming a principal? I guess maybe the journey to becoming principal at Knox College.

[Ernest van Eck]
So while I was minister in the student congregation, and in like kind of normal congregation, the suburban congregation I taught part time. The year after I left university, I started to teach Greek, and then later on, I started to teach like as intercessional, more New Testament courses. And I did that for 21 years.

And then after 21 years in the ministry and part time teaching, I was appointed at University as an associate professor. We in South Africa don't have assistant associate and full professor. They only have associate professor, and then they say full professor. And I was promoted in 2011 I was promoted to full professor. And then, you know, you become part of the institution.

So I then I was appointed as the state of the department, and I was supported as Deputy Dean and that is because one has certain admin skills, it's based on your research outputs. There are certain requirements that you have to comply with to become a Deputy Dean.

And then at the SBL meeting in 202/ 2021 I was there in San Antonio. I received this email from a company inviting me to apply to be the principal of Knox College. And I thought, why? This is a bit… I actually couldn't believe why? Why me? So after the meeting, we went to visit my son, and then we flew back to South Africa.

And then when I did the executive brief, I realized maybe there's a reason why they invited me to apply, because they wanted someone that was involved in administration on a high level. They were looking for someone that has got an international research profile, and they're looking for someone that was involved in the church. And that doesn't happen that often, especially amongst academia. People are either involved in the church and not in the academia, or in the academia and not in the church. And then, then I wrote the cover letter, and I was then contacted by the company that Knox hired to look for people to apply. And I had one more and one more. And let me say, seven interviews later, I received a call by the then governor of the board telling me that Knox has decided to hire me. So I think maybe, maybe I think my whole life, prepared me to become the principal of Knox College,

[John Borthwick]

That's been a theme in conversations I've been having on our podcast and just out in, out in the world, and certainly a theme as a part of my life and career as well. This, idea that, I think it speaks to vocation and maybe discernment and life being a journey, that while we might not know exactly where we're going to end up or where we might be led over the years, sometimes there's a variety of things that just pull together. I describe them as threads, all the threads pulling together into this maybe a next chapter of one's life that you didn't even realize was there. That was certainly my experience becoming the director of the Center for Lifelong Learning. And it's interesting for you to say that about becoming principal, just a couple of things to unpack for our listeners and some curiosity.

[John Borthwick]

So the SBL is, that's

[Ernest van Eck]

The Society of Biblical Literature. It's the largest meeting of theologians. It's always combined with the AR, American Academy of Religion, the two meetings are actually combined. It's huge. There's about 4,000 to 8,000 people attending that meeting. They've got the international meeting that's always in Europe or Australia. We hosted them once in South Africa. And 2020, 2023, I was the host. I invited them in 2018 to come to University of Pretoria. And then the annual meeting is always held in America, and they always look for a place that's got a huge convention center. They buy out all the hotels. It's a huge meeting. And you can attend just for the sake of the of the books being displayed. The book display is just amazing. I mean, you don't have to attend one lecture. Just go to the book display and sprinkle your time and see what you're interested in. The SBL itself has got groups on John, the economy of the first of ancient world of the first century. It's got all the Gospels on Paul, on queer studies, there's anything you can think of that's looked at in academia each day.

[John Borthwick]

Interesting, interesting. And then you mentioned where you went to school in the US. And I don't, I don't claim to know a lot about academia across the globe, as I always understood it, you mentioned GTU, and we have TST, so maybe if you could unpack GTU, and is it still going as a thing? Because my understanding always was that there was two places in North America that were doing this combined sort of interdenominational academic programming, Toronto School of Theology, and then GTU, I think, but you would know best. Can you tell me more about the GTU?

[Ernest van Eck]

The acronym stands for the graduate theological union, and it's a, it's a con, it's like a TST. But I think it's less formally structured. But you have the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, the Jesuits, think of any religion, and what then happens is that on a postgraduate level, guidance will say, on a graduate level, the professors of the different schools, even schools from in San Francisco, what they do is they put up a list where you can enroll.

And then, if they have enough students you just attend and it's your decision what courses you want to take. A lot of those courses are standalone courses. It’s not part of a program, but it's like you have the Chicago school, whatever. It's something like that. You compare it with a TST, it's not really the same. I think it's more, I wouldn't say, more relaxed, but it's less structured, but it's the same kind of thing.

[John Borthwick]

Yeah, I was just curious about that going to TST at Knox College and TST, way back when, I always had heard about GTU as a sort of a comparable or something similar, in the US and San Francisco. So let's go back to South Africa. And in that context, we've talked a number of times and about this, in particular, that as a person within a theological faculty, you were also continuing to be connected in congregational ministry, which I think for some I know there are some professors who still connect to their local church or connect to presbytery work. There's lots of folks who do that, but it's maybe not as traditional. In the Canadian context, I would wonder, but it was seemed very much an important thing within the context that you served in South Africa, it was essential that you be a serving minister in a congregation at the same time as being a professor at the faculty at the university. Can you? Can you share a bit more about that experience and what that looks like?

[Ernest van Eck]

There are different ways one can look at this. I think the best way to explain this is that we had, in terms of the offices in the church, in my denomination, and in almost all denominations in South Africa, in the Afrikaans speaking tradition, you have the office of the elder of the presbyters, sorry, the elder, the deacon, the minister, and then they see the professor also as an office.

So when you are appointed by the university, the church then would issue a call, and then they would say, all right, you've been called to serve as a professor, meaning that, from the church perspective, you're actually serving in the church, not at the university. From University's perspective, you serve at the university. They are your employer, and because they see it as a call, they expect you to be involved in a in a congregation, in a church. So Africa, we say the church is the institution, and the congregation is the local church.

So then they expect you to be ordained in a congregation, and they expect you to be active in the congregation, meaning that you have to preach, that they want you to be participate in management of the congregation, to attend to the meetings, to chair some meetings. They also want you to be involved in Christian education, what there is called catechism and and then annually, the annually, the congregation still report to the presbytery what you did and also what you said from the pulpit. Because there's this tradition in South Africa that people think that if you, especially if you in Bible, in the biblical languages, biblical subjects, like New Testament, Old Testament, they think you're always very liberal, and you, you don't, you don't stick to the doctrine of the Church. So they want to report on what you said from the pulpit. I always felt that philosophy was, if you are the one who has to form young people for the ministry, you should know what's going on in the church. And remember that in South Africa, it works differently. Right after school, directly after school, people come to university so they are ordained when they're about 23 or 24 years old. It's actually, it's very young. So formation of those young people is very, very important. So there was this link, and it was also the university was seen as a body that serves the church, and it indeed happened, we were always asked for reports on certain matters. If the church needed advice, they would contact us to write something or to publish something. The professors were also expected to do some preaching, to do Bible studies, to write Bible studies, to publish things that can be used by congregants. So there was a very close relationship between the church. So I must say, when I came to Toronto, to Canada, starting as principle for me, it was a surprise, to be honest, a huge surprise, that there was this kind of distance between Knox and the Presbyterian Church, although Knox is a seminary, a college of the Presbyterian Church. And I decided that maybe, we could do something about this. And I think in the meantime, a few things did happen that I think we are at least closing the gap a bit. We're not there yet. We will never be there. But I think the college must serve the church that is a I'm really adamant about that, and as long as I'm Principal, I will try my utmost best to see, look at all the ways, the many ways that Knox can serve with the church.

[John Borthwick]
Yeah, I know I've joked with you occasionally that you that you operate very much like a pastor versus a principal in the traditional terms of principals, as I've witnessed principals over the years, both within your way of leading the institution itself, you're often very pastoral in your approach, but you also as a part of your desire to be connected to the church, the wider church you're often in, in pulpits and visiting congregations a couple of Sundays a month, not just locally, but beyond as much as you can, which, again, I think is a to me, is excellent as an alumni of Knox College. I think that's a beautiful thing to make that connection. And when we met the first time, you also, as I was being onboarded here at Knox College as the director of the Center for Lifelong Learning, it was you also hoped that I would do the same, and so I've tried to continue that as well, just to maintain these connections and under your leadership and the Board of Governors of Knox College, it's been great to see the ways in which the College is seeing itself as serving the church, as opposed to simply being an academic institution that trains people up for leadership in the church. It's also that the college is a part to play in the life of the church and beyond, through its alumni in supporting them and also supporting the congregations and various ministries that they serve. So it's been amazing.

[Ernest van Eck]

Yeah, John, John, John, thank you. I believe that one should learn, and in English, then unlearn. So if you have say, for example, you have a dean and the Dean's got his own agenda, it's not always fair do things that mistreat people. Then I see that as an opportunity to unlearn to say to yourself, if you ever, if you, if I'm, if I am that position, if it happens, maybe someday in future. That is not the way to do this. Other times you have very good examples there. I had one professor in Pretoria that kind of was my mentor. And I believe that this, that is whereI learned how to do things in a certain way. And I just think that if you lead, you must do it in collaboration with the people you leading. I believe people are more important than issues. People are more important than items on an agenda. I believe one must try to create some bit of the of the kingdom. Treat be transparent. Treat everybody equally. These things are very important to me, because I think I call them Jesus principles, or Jesus values. This is who I am. If you don't have compassion, you don't feel for other people, I don't think you can lead people. We are all human.

[John Borthwick]

I wonder, since you are a New Testament scholar, I want our listeners to hear more about what's your particular interest in the New Testament and things like that. But I also wonder, being someone who's steeped in the New Testament, if that somehow gives you an edge over the rest of us, folks who aren't as steeped maybe in seeing Jesus much more clearly, much more deeply on a regular basis. You we were talking before we started the podcast about steeped tea, Tim Morton's, and I just wonder if there's a sense of you being so very steeped in in the New Testament has that helped to shape how you see the world around you? I, as a congregational Minister, I often talk to folks about if it came from I was listening to a rabbi one time, and he was saying, what was fascinating to him, in his experience of Christians, is that they don't they don't seem to know their own story (and they don't seem to be). He as connected to their rabbi, meaning Jesus. This was just his perspective in his engagement with Christians, some Christians, obviously, who didn't seem to have a deep relationship in this story, where, in the in the Jewish tradition, there's a lot of memorization, there's a lot of retelling and getting really intimately connected with the story from the Hebrew Scriptures. And so his invitation was, if you want to follow Jesus, then you need to be consistently reading his story and connecting with who he is. So I would often tell folks, if they want to go deeper in their Christian walk, just read the gospels all the time. Just consistently read through the Gospels all the time as you get nuance and build and build in congregational ministry. So I'd love to hear your interests, your research, all those kinds of things, and how that shapes who you are.

[Ernest van Eck]

John, Through the years of my studies, it was sometimes very bumpy roads, to be honest. I started very naively looking at different exegetical methods, so I kind of liked the narrative narratology, looking at stories, because the Gospels are stories. It's not a story like, like, like Hansel and Gretel, like, but I mean, it's a story. It's got characters and time and spacing and then because of the Jesus Seminar, I got interested in historical Jesus studies, that was a bumpy road, to be honest, as I read through this stuff, and I realized everything wasn't that simple. And then one day I read a New Testament introduction by Willie marks, and he was a German scholar, where he spoke about Jesus before the text, and all of a sudden it kind of everything came together for me, realizing that the Jesus of the Gospels, you have Matthew's Jesus and Mark's Jesus and you have John's Jesus, but there's also a historical person, and that person is kind of before the text. And I really got interested in looking at Jesus before the text. For example, I don't think one can write a New Testament ethics by looking at the Matthean Jesus, it tells you not to judge Matthew 7 and then Matthew 23 just as the Pharisees, who's the real Jesus we are supposed to follow. And as I start working through the Gospels, and I you get to a point where you build your own kind of picture of you think who Jesus was - It's always subjective. Don't make a mistake, It's never objective. It's your Jesus. It's like twice I said you're looking at the world, and you see your face at the bottom, but you get that point. We really realized that Jesus had certain values, and those values are the values I think one is supposed to adhere to and to apply in your life. If you really, if you really want to be a Jesus follower, and that includes compassion, equality, inclusivity, having an eye for your neighbour, not living inwardly, you are never the most important person in the conversation. You are the least important. If you want to be, if you want to serve, you must be. It's not about being important. It's about serving other people, and it gives me energy. Many things when I grew up, wasn't always that easy, but this as a way to live, that's what I live, is the essence of life. This is for me. And then,  when I started at university, I had to find the research knees. So how nice. I combined narratology story with historical Jesus, and I started to build the kind of a method you could read the parables from historical Jesus perspective. And that was, that was my main focus. I also focused on Paul and sexuality, the New Testament and Gender Studies and so forth. But I would say that, uh, that my most energy went into the parables.

[John Borthwick]

And that was, have you written several books, or one book or lots of articles? I assume.

[Ernest van Eck]

Ya, in South Africa, there's a different focus. The way in which research is funded is not by writing monographs. You don't get money for a monograph. But you get money for articles, so the focus in South Africa is to publish in peer reviewed journals. And because you are so focused to publish those articles, there isn't a lot of time to publish books. But I decided I want to publish a book. So I did. I did write a book on the parables it is. It's called the parables of a Galileo, the parables of the historical Jesus, stories of a Galilean prophet. You can hear from the title that I see Jesus as a social prophet. Don't read the book.

[John Borthwick] 

That’s not what you say. You're supposed to say. Make sure you go and buy the book immediately. Okay, so let's change gears just a little bit and talk about the transition from South Africa to Canada, coming to Toronto, Knox College, the PCC, maybe just reflect on you've already mentioned one thing that sort of that surprised you when you first came. But you know what stood out for you, what has surprised you, and maybe what have you most appreciated as you've come to this fair land to do ministry, and I've,

[Ernest van Eck]

I've decided, John, that when I retire one day, I'm going to write a manual for people coming to Canada. I'm going to warn them about getting an OHIP card, getting a driver's license, getting a SIN number. I will tell them how to stand in line, how to queue as we call it. We had to learn where to buy our groceries, what to buy, what is available. But I must say, for me, the most difficult thing was to kind of get settled in the college, in the administration of the college. I did the same thing South Africa, but we call it by different names. So we had modules. We have courses. We speak about, we speak about undergraduate and postgraduate studies. Yet it's basic degree and graduate studies. Graduate Studies will be, will be undergraduate in South Africa. So I did the same thing, and I was part of discussions about the same things back home, but I had to learn the nomenclature. There are different designations for the same things, and it took me a while kind of to get into it, but don't make a mistake, there are a lot of things that my wife and I that we appreciate about Canada. It's it's much safer than in South Africa. To be honest, everything is working. Canadians will disagree with me, but I think, I think it's because of context. Everything is working that we have public transport here that doesn't exist in South Africa. So when people complain about the public transport, I always say to myself, What do you have public transport? We are enjoying what we're doing here.

[John Borthwick]

Yeah, when I've talked to folks who were raised with a language, and then have had to work on translating and becoming fluent in English or the new language, whatever that language might be, they've talked about how they're thinking all the time and spinning in their head in their original language, and then as they're doing that work, they're translating what they're going to say out loud into the other language. So for yourself, Afrikaans into English all the time. And so there's extra work involved in that. But what I think I'm also hearing you say is not only that, it's also the contextual and cultural work of translating stuff that you were, for lack of a better expression, fluent in, in the space and place you occupied for so many years, and then coming here having to also do - Okay, so what are we talking about now? Or how would I talk about that in South Africa and then in this context. So it must take a lot of mental energy in the early days to start to begin to have that fluency, not only with the language, but also with the culture in the context.

[Ernest van Eck]

John I think one gets to a point where you don't think in Afrikaans and speaking English when you do that, it gets very difficult. The problem is – not the problem – why English for Afrikaans speaking people, is difficult is that in Afrikaans, you only have three tenses, past, present and future, and the verb you use for the first person singular, second person, first person plural, is the same verb. So you don't have Afrikaans, you don't have do's and does and is and are. You just have he said, they said, and he said they said - it's the same for everything. So the Afrikaans language is much easier. So when one speaks in English, the possibility to make what we used to call in Afrikaans major errors. If you had more than five major errors in the SI, you failed, like, if you use an “is” instead of an “are”, we don't have that so, sometimes it's difficult because if you if I can express myself in Afrikaans, I can really express myself. Sometimes I feel that even when I write, that I can't really express myself in English, especially when I pray. So for me, it's wonderful if I pray by myself, then I can pray in my vernacular, then I feel I can really pray. But to pray in English, it's not that easy, because for me, prayer is something different than just speaking the language. It is much more emotional. It's much more intense, it's much more personal. It's much more intimate, but maybe we'll get there someday.

[John Borthwick]

Well, that's a beautiful insight. I hadn't I hadn't thought of that being someone who's only been competent enough to speak English over the years and not really been able to pick up another language. I never thought about that, the intimacy of one's prayer life with the original language. That's a beautiful insight. I really appreciate that. Let's talk a bit about a couple of things. That under your leadership, you've been here now almost two years, or full two years. What are we on? What year are we on the ninth of September?

[Ernest van Eck]

Yes, I think it was yesterday two days ago. Yes, was my second anniversary in the office.

[John Borthwick]

Did we give you cake or anything? No? We have to do something. So two years in and under your leadership, along with the board, you've created two new centers, the Counseling Center, which just recently launched, we're recording this in September, just recently launched this month, and then the Center for Lifelong Learning, which, of course, I'm exceedingly grateful for to serve, and where Ministry Forum has become a platform. Can you speak a little bit about your vision behind these kinds of centers, how they might intersect with your experience as a congregational minister or a member of the Academy. What are tell us more about that?

[Ernest van Eck]

John, I actually don't have much to say about this, because the simple answer is, it is the way Knox wants to serve the church and community. We want to enable people, lay people in their ministry, maybe to be able to do a better job or to be more learned in what they do want to do. And we want to offer counseling to people who really need it. And we want to do this for as long as possible, for free. That's the way I think we can give back to the church and can give back to the community. And I must say, John to the wonderful, wonderful things, is that the Ministry Forum has got a director that that has the same vision, because the center, the Center for Lifelong Learning, which isn't easy, I won't say it's lots of competition out there, but, but it's a busy world, and people are busy doing these things. And I think with you leading at the center, we are doing very, very exceptionally well. I think your anniversary is only one here, and it was the first of August, if I remember correctly, yeah. And just see what, what you have achieved thus far. Um, that is the that is a way that in a visible way, we can serve the community, and we can serve the church, which, for me, is very, very important. You can't have a college just for the sake of a college. You can't have a college just to prepare people for the ministry or to become counselors. You must be involved in the community. You must be involved in the church. You must be involved in an inviting way. Jesus, there is, there is a that is why we doing this as a and I know we will. I know we're going to be very successful, because it's a kingdom thing. It's not our thing, it's God's thing, and we are here to serve. And as you've said many times, and I like the I like the slogan very, very much, is that you're not alone. Knox wants to show the world that you are not alone. We are in this together, and in this it's not always that easy.

[John Borthwick]

Too true, too true. It's not always that easy. Yeah. It's yeah. It's been a pleasure to be a part of this journey and to be connected with the leadership, both through yourself and through the board and the team here at Knox College, just to see the ways in which we're all striving to serve the church in some way, both through what we do each and every day, and equipping students into their learning and into their practice of ministry, whatever that ministry might be, whether that is the master of psycho spiritual studies, or whether that's a master of divinity or Christian studies, or whatever it might be, just the ways in which we do that on a regular daily basis, but also the ways in which we give back to our alumni and see our interconnectedness with the PCC and ministry leaders out there, it's been great to be a part of a team that's it's all pulling in that direction, which is, it's beautiful. Let's, wrap up a little bit and think about a couple of things. I'm going to throw you with an extra question in a second, because I do like to prepare people for the podcast, but I'm going to throw another question. I don't think it's going to be too hard, but let me ask the question I prepped you with, which was, I know you work exceedingly hard. I think that comes just from who you are as a person. I also sense that how work was is perceived, maybe in the in the South African content context, was had a sort of vision of how one was supposed to work. So I know you work very hard, but when you do get a moment, if you get a moment of free time, what do you most like to do. And what are you most passionate about when you get a chance to not be in the working mode? I'm sure you're passionate about your work, not to say that, but is there? What do you do with your free time?

[Ernest van Eck]

I like to bike in nature, and Toronto has beautiful biking routes, biking paths. And then when I do, find the time I like to read over weekends. My wife and I really, we like to watch sports. We are huge rugby fans and cricket fans, still supporting South African teams whenever we can and we used to have a golden retriever and I’d really loved to walk her again. It was being open you know, being out in the open. And I really love to do it very early in the morning, when everything is fresh and everybody's asleep, and you kind of have the little you have your own space. You have to place for yourself a way of speaking. I think that's more or less, but I think one has to do something. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm always maybe I'm too busy. But somebody once told me, you must teach yourself to do nothing, because when you do nothing, you're not doing nothing. You're doing something. You do nothing. And I think to be busy is a good thing.

[John Borthwick]

So the question that's similar, I think, on a similar vein, and you've highlighted it a couple of different times in a couple of different ways. I think is so many folks who are in ministry, and the research often shows us through surveys and things like that, say that people are often caught up in the work of ministry, whatever that ministry might be, and the thing that sometimes gets missed is actually nourishing oneself, one's own spiritual life. So people, for example, a clergy, might say, if they're asked about reading the Bible, are they? Reading the Bible for the sake of preparing for the sermon. Do they read the Bible any other time or for their own spiritual nurture? If they're praying, is it I'm writing prayers for Sunday morning, or I pray when I go to all the meetings because I'm the professional prayer or it might be a psychotherapist who has a desire to offer spiritual care. Are they doing all those spiritual practices simply as a part of their job, or is there something that's nourishing them? And I'm not wanting to put you on the spot around I would call this part in part kind of the aspirational things you may have embedded spiritual practices that are helpful to you. I'd love to hear if you do or you can also offer you. Know these are the things I aspire to, but I know that sometimes I'm not always there. That's how I would express it for myself. I have practices that I do very early in the morning that has been embedded in my life and has certainly helped to sustain me and what I do, but I also know there's seasons of my life where I've let that slide, or I've got overwhelmed with other stuff. So I think for our audience, I'd love to hear maybe, perhaps, how a principal sustains themselves in their spiritual life, for the work and ministry that they've been called to.

[Ernest van Eck]

I also have certain practices early in the morning, and I do that the moment I wake up. So for the for the first 20 minutes after I've woken up, while being in bed, I would do my practices. I would do my prayers. I would kind of think myself through the day, kind of prepare myself for the day. And what I sometimes do is, if I realize, but I have to get going now, and I feel I'm not there yet. I would, for example, when I bike to the office, I won't listen to a podcast, I won't listen to music. I would kind of do a kind of a meditation thing while biking again, going through my day. What on my to do list? the meetings I will have to make sure that I'm emotionally, I could even say spiritually, prepared for what will happen during the day. Of course, there were surprises and most days you plan to do something, and when you get back home at night, you realized you did other things. You didn't do what you plan to do, because it because it was how the day developed. But for me, it's important that when you start today, let me say this, for me, it's important to start a day before other people start their day. That I feel, that I'm prepared for today. For me, that is, that is very important. And also, this is for me and my wife as a what we love to do is we'd have to go to church, because for so many years, my wife was also a minister, a pastor, for so many years, you had to do the job, and you had to go to church because you were going to do the sermon. You're the minister. Now, all of a sudden, you wake up on a Sunday morning and you realize, but you know what, I can go to church this morning, and I can go to any church I wish. And for us, that is what we do is we try to do pulpit supply twice a month, and then twice a month we can go to church. And we see that as a as a huge privilege. And then and when we  go to church we don't go to church as theologians or as a principal, as a pastor, we go to church as people who believe in Christ, not critical about anything. We always, we believe you can always get something from any sermon. I don't think that any sermon can be a bad sermon. You can get something out of that sermon for yourself and for us. That is a nice thing to do.

[John Borthwick]

That's beautiful. Thank you. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you wished I had asked you?

[Ernest van Eck]

I would like no more questions. John, no. John, I think we've got a lot of topics. Yeah, thanks again for having me, and thanks again to what you're doing for the center.

[John Borthwick]

and thank you for serving the way you do and answering that call when it came to to come and serve Knox College, we're delighted to have you as our principal.

[Ernest van Eck]

Let us both try our best.

[John Borthwick]

We will. We will.

[Outro]

Thanks for joining us today on the ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way.

If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues. Tell someone, please don't keep us a secret. And of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you. And honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either.

And don't forget to follow us on social media at MinistryForum on all. Of our channels, you can visit our website at ministryforum.ca for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community until next time.

May God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do. May you be fearless, not reckless, and may you be well in body, mind and spirit and may you be that peace.