Building Belonging with Rev. Dr. Hyung Jin (Pablo) Kim Sun
Rev. John sits down with Rev. Dr. Hyun Jin (Pablo) Kim Sun, Intercultural Liaison for The Presbyterian Church in Canada, to talk about what it means to build a truly intercultural church. Drawing on insights from his book Building Mennonite Belonging: Toward an Intercultural Church, Pablo reflects on belonging, power, and the tension between love and justice in our faith communities. Together, they explore the difference between multicultural, cross-cultural, and intercultural ministry, and how the Canadian church can move beyond tokenism toward genuine transformation. With characteristic warmth and depth, Pablo invites listeners to see diversity not as a challenge to be managed but as a gift that strengthens the whole ecosystem of the church.
About Rev. Dr. Pablo Kim Sun
Pablo Kim Sun is a Mennonite pastor, scholar, leader in Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB), and an intercultural catalyst. He is passionate about helping church communities and non-profit organizations excel in intercultural initiatives, equipping them to navigate complex and polarized societal issues with wisdom and care. Pablo believes that organizations thrive when they genuinely integrate diverse perspectives and voices. He is the author of Who Are Our Enemies and How Do We Love Them? and Building Mennonite Belonging: Toward an Intercultural Church. Currently, Pablo serves as Intercultural Liaison at The Presbyterian Church in Canada, a general secretary–level role. He holds a Ph.D. in Theological Studies from the University of Toronto. His work and reflections are deeply shaped by his multifaceted identity as a Korean, Paraguayan, scholar, pastor, immigrant, and Christian living on Turtle Island. To explore Pablo’s latest writing and reflections, visit his Substack.
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the Ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
[John Borthwick]
We are delighted to have with us today in the studio the Reverend Dr Hyung Jin Pablo, Kim Sun, intercultural liaison for the Presbyterian Church in Canada. It has been great getting to know Pablo over the last year or so. I truly appreciate his wisdom and passion, and as I often say to him, I always come away from our conversations feeling a little more hopeful and inspired about the future of the church today. Now, while I'm certain we'll talk about Pablo's role with the PCC, what I really wanted to chat to Pablo about was his new book that was released earlier this year entitled Building Mennonite Belonging: Toward and Intercultural Church. Now I recognize it's a book about the Mennonite tradition, but as I read it, I found it resonated with me as to how I, as someone born in Canada and raised in the Presbyterian tradition, have been enculturated by my context and upbringing. And I'm hopeful that our conversation will not only encourage our listeners to read your book, Pablo, but it'll also stimulate their own reflections on what an intercultural church might look like and how they can be part of contributing to such a rich ecosystem, as I've often heard you refer to it as. So as we begin, let me offer a few words of introduction to those of you who don't know who Pablo is, and then invite him to either add or subtract as necessary. You can also read a fuller bio of Pablo in our show notes. So Pablo Kim Sun is a Mennonite pastor, scholar, leader in diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, and an intercultural catalyst. Currently, Pablo serves as the Intercultural Liaison for the Presbyterian Church in Canada, a General Secretary level role. He holds a PhD in theological studies from the University of Toronto. His work and reflections are deeply shaped by his multifaceted identity as a Korean, Paraguayan, scholar, Pastor, immigrant and Christian living on Turtle Island. Welcome Pablo. I'm so delighted to be in conversation with you today on the Ministry Forum Podcast.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Thank you, John. It is honoured to be a part of this podcast, and thank you for the invitation. And I really look forward for our deep conversation today. If there's only one more thing to add about the intro is I also like to be described as someone as a skilled hospice worker and an age worker of change. So by that, I mean I try to respect and offer pastoral counselling and pastoral care to the ending of structures, cultures and systems that have served us in the past, while at the same time helping to open pathway to our new ways of being and building community together.
[John Borthwick]
Wonderful. So much, such a richness that is you, Pablo, I so appreciate that. Now I wonder maybe we should start with just for those who aren't too sure about your role with the PCC, if you could tell us a little bit more about your leadership role there. I've read your job description on the PCC website and under intercultural office, if you're looking for it, it'll also be in our show notes. Now, as I read that job description, that feels a little daunting for one person to be responsible for, so kudos to you. You're you're almost, are you almost through your first year? Or maybe we're just a little beyond a first year?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
No, we just ended the first year, and my second year is just started.
[John Borthwick]
So, so where are you finding the ground is softest, and what's been giving you some traction so far as you've been doing getting acquainted to the PCC and all its unique beauty.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, sure. I could start. I could explain more about the soft spaces, but let me go back and explain a bit more about what this role is about, because during my first year of work, I've been generally traveling and listening to pastors and leaders throughout this ecosystem of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. And to my surprise, there's a lot of interpretation of what this role is supposed to be. And I think I have heard like five to six different version of what this role was to be. So it was very confusing at first, but through those listening, I have a better understanding what this role is. But in a nutshell, what I'm hearing and what I'm learning from all the history from the development of this position is that PCC is now the denomination where we have people from all these diverse backgrounds, and we are striving to be reflecting this diversity, but recognizing that there have been harm and hurt done, but then there's still this aspiration and desire to be a healthy, intercultural church, and so they have created this leadership role, or this office to help and guide and to tend the denomination into this intercultural community, with the understanding that PCC is not only an institution, it is a living ecosystem, a living organism. So it's not like you measure it, you put a program and expect something to come up, but it's rather, it's much more complex than that. So they needed someone to lead toward those authentic changes, the real changes that the whole denomination was looking for. And so of course, this is a very daunting position. And what make it a bit harder, I guess, is that is a time sensitive work, because, as you have mentioned, John, this role is only for five years. So maybe after the five-year, people say, let's continue. Or people could say, oh, we have arrived there. We don't need this office anymore. Or it could be, it could merge with other positions. Who knows, we'll see. But what I'm actually sensing as I have meet and engage with pastors and leaders throughout PCC across Canada is that I think that time is ready. It's ripe. Meaning that when I meet with people and talk about this intercultural engagement and ministry, people are very receptive. And some people are saying that, Oh, I'm glad that we are finally having this position and this role, because people are sensing the need. They are seeing that their neighborhood have changed, even in the rural area, they're sensing that when they go to Tim Hortons or McDonald's, the people who have served them have changed. And not only that, that diversity is not only out there, but it's not part of us. So as a church that truly want to welcome and not in a in a superficial way, and not in a tokenism approach, but how do we welcome there truly, I'm hearing people really asking those hard questions and wanting to go deep. So I think we're in a good environment, and I'm grateful that the leaders have decided to have this position developed. And I really look forward to work with PCC leaders across Canada to the how do we truly engage into this intercultural work?
[John Borthwick]
That's fantastic. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that you're having a sense of encouragement in your role, and also that there's a, there seems to be an appetite for this kind of conversation and this kind of effort, and you providing this, this leadership for our denomination that that, that does my heart good to hear that we're doing that that's wonderful. Well, let's dive into the book Pablo. People can't see on the screen, but I'm showing Pablo the many, the many little note tabs I have in his book as I as I read through it a while back. I always like to ask authors, having never written a book before myself, but being a voracious reader and respectful of the craft of writing, how did you know that you had this book within you, or what did you hope for by putting this out into the world when you thought about this book, Building Mennonite Belonging Toward an Intercultural Church?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, thank you. That's a great question, John, as I've described in this book, this book came up. It's a further development from my PhD dissertation. So when I apply for a PhD, I already have, I had an idea what I wanted to research, and it's about how can. Mennonite Church become more intercultural. Canadian Mennonite churches can become intercultural. And the reason why I that was such an important topic for me is I'm a Mennonite pastor. I've been involved with a Mennonite circle more than 15 years, and I feel myself very rooted into the Mennonite traditions. But the longer I am part of the Mennonite circle, I feel like I'm a half Mennonite. And let me unpack that a little bit more half Mennonite, because, you know, the Mennonite community is very unique in that way that it has this strong connection of ethnic Mennonite and Mennonite faith integrated. It's like the Jewish people, people of Israel, where they have this ethnic identity and there's the faith aspect. So in a Mennonite community, the norm the authentic, the genuine Mennonite are the people who are born from the men on ethnic communities and also embrace the faith aspect. Not all the communities see you in that way, but that is the general sense that I get to feel and experience when I enter two different Mennonite circles. And so then, as a Korean Paraguayan who joined me through faith, I often feel like, can I ever be a full Mennonite? And there were moments to be honest, there were moments I felt like, you know, maybe I should go and choose another denomination. Maybe it's just not for me, but because this faith aspect of mental was so important and crucial, I also discovered so that men on a faith expression that no, I have to rather stay here and advocate for the change, the change where all the people who are like me could join and experience full belonging. And part of that change making is what I decided to focus is shaping and reshaping our mentor, just to become intercultural community. And so then that became my topic of dissertation. And because this is something wider, it's not only to get a PhD, but it was really to have a wider impact and be more accessible and reach out to more leaders out there. I really wanted to publish the book, this book, so then, as you know, a PhD dissertation is meant to write only for five to six people. But that's why I had to revive thoroughly and make it as accessible as possible, but understanding that this was a development from a PhD dissertation, and so it's not as accessible as I want it to be, but I did my best so that it could be read by lay leaders as well, not scholars. And also, I have revised it in a way that could be read by a non-Mennonite and find inspiration in this book.
[John Borthwick]
That was certainly my experience. I know you had mentioned to me before that this book might not be interesting to anyone but Mennonites, and so I would respectfully disagree as I read it, I found it really accessible. I'm I often describe myself as not an academic and not a scholarly type of person, but I found it very accessible as a read. For sure, it certainly provoked a lot of my own understanding and some of my Canadian denominational heritage, while bearing witness to another denomination experience. And I found that actually a helpful thing for me as I engaged with it. You speak about, you know, within the Mennonite tradition, there's that sense of, you know, Will I ever be a full Mennonite? I don't know if you've, if you've connected in rural communities in Ontario, for sure, even in, even in a place where I live, the city of Guelph, there was a sense that now I've been here for like, 20, 23, 24 years. And there's always a sense of, unless you were born here and raised here, you're really not from here, like you can never really be a full Guelphite until that's a reality, and that that's certainly something I experienced in being in rural communities as well. So there is something about a culture that says, you know, how do we define culture? And is it about do you have to be born in that culture, or spend a specific amount of time or get your credentials in some way within that culture, and what are those tick boxes that we need to make in order to be a real person within that culture is always a challenge, for sure.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
And I think that's also true with other denomination like Mennonite has this explicit. Ethnic identity. But there are other denomination they are not like that. You know, I work with CRC. I have worked with other denomination too. CRC still have this strong Dutchness, but other denomination do not highlight their ethnic or their legacy identity, but because of so much of the system, culture and policy has been centered around the legacy group, even though they are the minority. Right now, everything is so centered around this legacy group that that is really becoming a barrier to moving to a really deep into cultural engagement. And I hope this book really helped us to bring up all those hidden, systemic barriers that we have, that we carry in each of our denominations.
[John Borthwick]
Well, I wondered for my I wondered as I was reading it, for myself, I found it to be, maybe in a way, a safer entry point to look at this, this concept in in the context of another denominations stream. And so I'd love for you to unpack a few things for our audience, like to highlight a few things within the book that you think would be meaningful and helpful for them to consider. And let me just, you know, tease, out a couple of things. Maybe in your introduction, you offer the readers a glimpse of the journey you're about to take them on. And I wonder if you might help to paint this picture in your own words. You shared this. The type of critical intercultural relationship that I'm describing is an engagement based on love and justice with a clear understanding of the existing power dynamic within one's social context. Through this mutual interaction, people share cultural aspects, broaden their understanding of God, deepen their life of discipleship and community, and strive for a fair distribution of power among all parties so that there can be equity and justice for all, particularly in the Canadian context, to be a critical intercultural church means to be a decolonizing and anti-racist community, because Canada was established through settler colonialism and is built upon the ideology of white supremacy. Now that's a lot, I grant you, that's a lot to unpack, but could you sort of help sort of try to paint that picture for us and maybe speak a little bit more about what the intercultural church you are imagining actually looks like?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, I also want to acknowledge that that's a lot, and I think that's the thesis, the main argument of the whole book. So once you get that, you'll then understand why I'm unpacking some concept here and there throughout the chapters. But to unpack this a little bit more, let me start with the understanding of justice and love. In any healthy human relationship, it needs to be mutual. It just can't benefit one person. You have to benefit everyone who is part of that relationship and in that relationship, love is essential. Of course, we know that in a good relationship there's affection, care and genuine yearning for the other, but love can also be sentimental or misunderstood. So someone might even say that they're in a loving relationship, while in reality, it's harmful or abusive. That's why we need the lens of justice. It helps us discern whether love is truly life giving or whether it is masking harm. On the other hand, justice without love can feel cold and transactional, so it's the integration of love and justice together that creates relationships that are both healthy and life giving, that is mutual. Now if we take that relational dynamic and expanded it to the level of a whole community, intercultural engagement means learning to live in the same balance of love and justice in a very particular context. Interculturality never looks the same everywhere it is shaped by the place history and power dynamics. For example, what is intercultural engagement looks like in South Korea can look like differently in Paraguay and will look differently here in Canada, and here in Canada, because of our colonial history and persistence of racism in our social structures, genuine intercultural engagement require us to engage through anti-racists, and decolonizing lenses, that's what make it healthy and life giving into this context. So finally, I hope you're you find you're following along the line here. But finally, why do I use the word critical? Because from the perspective of a legacy group, a community, might seem intercultural, but if you ask people of color or newcomers, they might actually feel like assimilation, where they're expected to adjust to the dominant culture without real mutuality. So critical, reminds us to keep asking. Is this truly mutual, truly life giving to both parties, our power and belonging really being shared here? That's the vision I'm trying to name. Is that helpful? Does it help to unpack a bit more?
[John Borthwick]
I really appreciate that getting a better sense of where you're coming from, from with all those different phrases and words. Yeah, a very helpful indeed. When I think of congregational ministry, I'll sometimes in my in my time of ministry, I can remember, and this leads into my next question, but I can remember a church talking about itself being multicultural, so we're a multicultural church and I had served my first church was in Toronto, and I remember somebody from national office who isn't there any longer, but somebody who visited our church, the church I served, and they said, my goodness, this church is so Toronto, because it was very much a diverse church, lots of folks from West Africa, mostly Ghana and the Caribbean, Trinidad and Guyana, as well as a variety of other folks from different spaces. But, but what was challenging within that context, and in the context where churches had talked about themselves as being multicultural, the one time when I asked a church, tell me about because I had come from a Toronto church, I said, Tell me about how you're multicultural, or how do you define that, and what they did around the room, and it happened to be all people who look like me. They said they started naming off people in the congregation. And it was sort of like one offs of people. So it was like, well, we have, we have that family, and they're from Mexico, and we have that family and they're from, where are they from? Again? Oh yeah, they're from Sierra Leone, and we have that family. And I, and I was just bearing witness to a notion of we're a multicultural church, and holding that up with some, you know, esteem, like we're a multicultural church, but having a sense of people were just being identified by the countries they came to, and definitely within leadership, with an activity in the congregation, there wasn't that full sense of, Is there is there a sharing of responsibility? Is there a is there an obvious participation in the variety of cultural giftedness and expressions? And even the congregation I served in Rexdale, it was a Rexdale Presbyterian Church there, if you just even looked at music, we had folks from the Caribbean and West Africa who had, who have musical traditions that that never got a chance to be expressed despite a lot of different efforts and ways of doing that. And so I wonder, and I'm going to lead into that question in a second, but I wonder, if you want to just reflect on that experience, and maybe it does come out in the book in various ways as well, just that experience of like we're multicultural, because we have different cultures in our church, but, and you almost expressed that, I think, at one point already, where it's kind of like we checked that box. We've done it, we've arrived, we we've welcomed people in, and now we're done. And I'm wondering if that's maybe a piece of what we're unpacking around multiculturalism.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, those term and concept like this all is connected also this different understanding of engaging with differences. Are we talking about cross cultural? Are we talking about multicultural, or are we talking about intercultural? Because sometimes when I go in some context and talk about intercultural, and some other people might be thinking about cross cultural. Or while some people are talking about cross cultural, they're talking as if they're talking about intercultural. So differentiating this key concept is very important. Like to be very brief. Cross Cultural is about going beyond your home culture, your comfortable culture, to another context, and be exposed and have and you can form good relationship. But once you come back your home culture, your cultural context is not influenced, but it might have influenced you as a person, and it might have caused you to reflect more about your culture and also create this good relationship when you went to the other places. It's not that deep transformation experience. It's just a good, helpful experience. It's like mission trip, where people go to a mission trip, or when they go to a short-term mission. Those are cross cultural. Multicultural is more like where you have diverse people in your community, and people might celebrate or might not celebrate the diversity, but you are navigating how to live in that diversity, how to be a good neighbors. So the emphasis of multicultural is the representation of differences, but it doesn't mean that you're engaging with those differences. You could just be a good neighbor. So that's some key term that people use in a multicultural context and dynamic, is how to tolerate the other so how to live that difference without not being so bothered by them, engage with them minimally, but not so much that year they cross your border. So then a good image of that is mosaic. You know mosaic, they have all these beautiful, small pieces together come together. But another important part of the mosaic image is there's a strong highlighted line between all the pieces. There's your boundary. That's my boundary. You better respect those boundaries. But let's celebrate the differences here, and then another deeper level that we're trying to encourage is intercultural, meaning, you know, the term is focused on inter so it meaning that relationship between these different cultural group, and it's not only stopping on the bill good neighbors, but also seeking to be transformed, mutually transformed, and sort of mutual transformation. We're seeking something broader together, like worshiping God, that's beyond our cultural understanding, following Christ, that's beyond one way of one cultural way of following Christ. It's really enriching everyone, every one of us. But I also want to comment that it's hard to become intercultural without going through the process of multicultural. So when you're only a homogeneous community, or if you're a community that's only a people with your own cultural context, it's hard to become intercultural. So being exposed to different cultures is also a good way of, you know, transitioning to the next steps.
[John Borthwick]
I really, yeah, I really appreciate that. Pablo, the the chapter four of your book, Canadian multiculturalism and interculturality. It really blew me away. It was, I think it should be required reading for all Canadians raised in the Papa Trudeau years of the 1970s and 80s, such as myself. I'd say it really even disrupted me in some ways, because it reminded me of an indigenous presenter one time who called out a predominantly white audience and was saying to folks, you all, you all use this expression. You know that we're you're a colonizer. What you all need to know is that you people have been colonized too. You aren't just a colonizer. You've been colonized. And I, I'm aware that I was spoon fed multiculturalism from the day I was born as with pride, a sense of like being Canadian meant you were multicultural. We're not like those people to the south of us who have melting pots. We have a mosaic. It's a beautiful thing. And so, yeah, it i Well, I think I've made some progress over the years around understanding that. I'd really encourage folks, when they when they dive into the book, to really pay attention to that chapter four. And I so appreciate the nuances between multicultural, cross cultural and intercultural, and that reminder that it's incredibly difficult to become intercultural if you haven't touched on those other pieces in some way, but also that, if that, if you're a monoculture, it's, you know, it's a very difficult journey to become intercultural if you don't have a lot of experience in that, in that world. And I must say, sorry, you go ahead. Pablo.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
I just want to comment that you talk about multiculturalism, Canadian multiculturalism, you know? I started by talking how intercultural is very contextual. It has to be contextual. And when we talk about intercultural church in Canada, we. Can't take out the understanding of multi-Canadian multiculturalism in our understanding of intercultural because as you have mentioned, this Canadian multiculturalism is intentionally crafted by political leaders, so it is not a concept or a framework that came out from the aspiration of being inclusive and kind and welcoming. They had this specific political agenda. So we need to be really, really mindful about that. As you mentioned, this Canadian multiculturalism emerged with this political leaders trying to frame Canada as a globally progressive country, so that they can welcome foreign investors, investors rather than the US, and also signaling that we are very kind nation compared to the US. Were not the melting pot, and it was a strategy to categorize indigenous people into the one of the immigrant communities so that they could silence their unique status and claims it was to appease certain demand from Quebec was nationalism, and ultimately it was a framework for that federal government to control over diversity. And so out of that, of course, there's some positive aspect of this multiculturalism. It's better than the US, that's for sure, and it is a better framework than the earlier framework, which was more like a bicultural framework. But let us not be naive that this is out of this motivation by justice or equity, but rather calculated political strategy. And so in a response to this, Indigenous leaders say, hey, that's something weird with that framework. And so they advanced more toward that decolonizing approaches that will resist the subsumes under multiculturalism. Whoever cross thinkers, they're like, this is weird. So they came up their own framework called multiculturalism, to distinguish themselves from the Federal model. And then many racialized communities, meanwhile, pressed for anti-racist approaches that challenges the limit of the state multiculturalism. So in this dynamic, we're talking about what it means to be an intercultural church. Yeah, be mindful and careful with all these different discourses.
[John Borthwick]
Definitely, yeah, it is a, I guess, a cautious journey that's fraught with many rabbit holes and challenges around the way along the way, for sure, I've definitely seen this in culturation, of being Canadian, how it's impacted the church in many ways, and certainly in my own tradition within the PCC. I'm struck by the comment that I often heard from the recently retired Dr Stuart McDonald, our Presbyterian Church history professor at Knox College, when people would often say, and often people default to this, and you mentioned this around some other defined, typically, traditionally defined, typically denominations that have a cultural attachment, that people would say that the Presbyterian Church in Canada is a Scottish church, and Dr McDonald would always be very reactive and say it's a Canadian church. It's not a Scottish church, it's Canadian. And many layers were a part of that being Canadian in the sense he, I think he was reflecting that you're we weren't a church that was Scottish as we thought. We were a church that was Scottish, but we had appropriated stuff from our ancestors in such a way that that wouldn't that our ancestors wouldn't recognize today as being Scottish. And so that's where he would talk about, where a Canadian church that has Scottish roots, that has incorporated stuff that we see as traditional, but isn't really connected in the same way to the culture. And I think I've seen that most in some contexts where congregations have been resistant to or found it difficult in adapting to folks that they would define as non-Canadians. And you do highlight this in your book a few different ways, but broadly defined, that would be things like, you know, language, accents, maybe education or experience or even color. Did you want to say a bit about this around how the church's passion for perhaps being Canadian has impacted and continues to challenge us today? What that looks like for you?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
That's a great question, John, first of all, I want to comment that I really appreciate Dr Stuart Macdonald approach of Canadian PCC identity, while there is some legacy of a Scottish immigrant, how he tried to emphasize that we were more than Scottish, because it is kind of reminding the current churches like especially those who want to center around Scottish immigrants, we're gently challenging we were more than that. Why do we want to narrow down our identity? Let us be a Canadian, which is a much more broader and inclusive approach, and I really like that approach. But now let's go back with that being a Canadian, because now that I'm being part of a PCC and trying to understand PCC culture, and when I asked them, What does PCC mean? They always mostly start with or even though they don't start with this, they also always add this UCC elements into their answer that we're not UCC. So it's by saying what we're not is finding way of what we are unique. So in same way in Canada, when we say Canada, one way that people, I often hear is that we're not the US so that they're trying to it is in their group, collective identity, formation of trying to identify what is us and how we are different from them. And I think all the siblings, when we engage with our brothers and sisters, we all experience something. What am I? I'm different from my siblings, but how am I unique and different? That's the process by being people who are different from us. This is the self-differentiation process that we all go through so which is very healthy, very normal, especially where in the south, is constantly looking to, you know, look down or take over part of what we value. It is a natural tendency. But the danger is, when we find something while we are different and unique, we could end up excluding others, especially who are not part of the normal part of the center people. So that is something to be reminded Another important point is culture is never static. So when people say that this is Canadian culture or this is a Korean culture, what they often mean is that the way of being in doing that feels more familiar and comfortable is the culture. But you know, as time goes by, the culture that we have identified could be a culture that the younger generation no longer accept or even reject. So the question becomes, whose culture are we talking about here? Are we talking about Canadian culture in 1940 or are we talking about present day culture and also let us be let us remember that when we have new Canadians, like people from the global south or the global majority, they are Canadians, and they are one of the poor people who are constantly shaping and reshaping our Canadian identity and culture. So our Canadian culture is evolving. So being reminded of that when we talk about Canadian culture, it could be used in a way to be inclusive, or it could be used in a way to exclude others. But fundamentally from a Christian perspective, we know that we are invited to go beyond our national framework. Yes, we are. It is important to celebrate that national uniqueness, the gift the land that we are enjoying. They're all good. They're not bad, they're all good, something to celebrate. But we know that we are church that is the whole church, one body, one global Catholic Church. So it's also constantly inviting us to go beyond our national framework, while also celebrate the uniqueness of each culture. And I think this vision comes more clearly in Revelation 7 is a powerful reminder that we are a church of every nation, tribe, language, gathered together to worship God and Jesus, and that's the horizon we are called to live toward where all cultures are honored, yet all are transformed in Christ.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, definitely. I found it interesting when you were talking about, you know, which culture are we labeling and in passing that culture on, I remember an experience I had, and I've just read, speaking of Stuart Macdonald. I just read his book recently, his newest book, tradition and tension, and he talks a lot about the growth of the church over the 1950s 60s. Over a period of time, there was a bump in growth after the war. And I don't have the specific stats on this, but you you mentioned in your book early on, when you're speaking of this global church, that if we understand how it's tracking, by probably about 2045, somewhere in that range, we think that I forget what the stat was like. One in one in three Canadians
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Oh, one in two Canadians.
[John Borthwick]
One in two Canadians will be not near 40, something like that. Yeah, by about 2040, will not be like will be immigrants to this country. Is that that? Yeah, and as I understand it, from a human resource staffing perspective, I have a few connections in that world, in my life, this is what we need. We just don't have a birth rate that's going to allow us to continue to be a country that can provide the all the things that need to happen to keep a country going. We do need immigration as a part of that, and I'm just again, I'll reference back to my time at Rexdale. Rexdale was one of those churches that was founded in the 50s. And in the 1950s there was a massive immigration of people from England and Ireland and Scotland. And there was work there. And so the area of Rexdale in Toronto, Rexdale is famous for a little bit of a Canadiana reference the AV Roe, or Avro Arrow, a fighter jet that was developed by the Canadian, Canadian military that the Americans. Apparently, there's a whole legend around it. Anyways, it was built in this this place, this plant, and mostly by Scottish, Irish and English immigrants, and so, you know, a lot of reminiscing and nostalgia. Rexdale at that time had a church school like 300 kids, and it was just packed out, and there were all these little churches. And Stuart does a great job of talking about how there was all this massive growth. I only share that to say you know that our growth in the 50s and 60s may have result, may have been a result of, you know, an increased birth rate for a while, and also just a huge immigration of a certain cultural demographic, the community of Rexdale, when I went there in like, late 1990s and early 2000s What it was, was kind of a transitional community regularly. So lots of the folks that had lived there raised their kids there in the housing and everything. They were moving out of that area, and new immigrants were coming in. And I remember talking to some newer immigrants who talked about how, you know, Rexdale was kind of the place that a certain cultural group would move into, and then they'd move out and disperse as income and lifestyle changed over time. So it was a fascinating sort of journey of like, what's the new immigrant community that's living in that community within Rexdale, and then how that would evolve and change and so, and I think this happens in various places across the country. But I say that because it's also connected to a church that we were speaking to one time as a presbytery, that were an immigrant church first generation, and they were talking about how to pass their culture on to the second generation. And we're starting to have some struggles. And the most fascinating conversation I ever bore witness to was a group of folks who were, you know, white English, Irish, Scottish folks in their older years whose children didn't go to church anymore, having a conversation with kind of a similar aged West African congregation leaders talking about, you know, how do we depend on the next generation? And within the within that West African culture, there was a sense of, this is just going to happen. And kind of a cautionary warning from the other generation of like, I don't know, we thought it would happen too, and it hasn't for us. And so I wonder if that was almost a moment of sort of intercultural dialog around our generational experience and our desire to pass that on to the next generation, and just sort of how, that's how that impacted some folks. Any thoughts on that one?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, yeah. Is just the faith aspect. It's always as you think about the next generation, we need to be as Christian leaders or church leaders. We need to be mindful. How can we become a community not just serve the people who found it, but for the next generation, so that it becomes sustainable and so much of a community that come together only for brief time or only for their own comfort really lose this opportunity to think beyond their generation. And so in order to be sustainable, we have to talk about we're not only going to create a community that will is where I feel belong, but for the next generation to feel belong. And what would that look like? And it will be different, because it's not the children of the next generation will not be the people have grown up into our own context. They will have grown up in their own unique context. But of course, there's something that we want to pass it along, because we don't want them to struggle the same thing that we did. So how can we balance and what are those things that we want to give and pass along to our next generation? And what are the things that are essential? And why are those things that are not essential? Because, like, for example, 11 O'clock am worship service. Is that essential? I don't think so.
[John Borthwick]
It's in the Bible. I'm sure Pablo, I'm sure it's some part of Leviticus, I don't know, 2650, or something. It's in there somewhere, you must you shall have services at 11 o'clock. Yeah, Sunday morning, despite anything else that might be happening on a Sunday.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah. And the tricky part is, so much of our faith aspect is integrated with our cultural lenses. Sometimes we get mixed up. If this is cultural or this is faith. And so as we engage with people for who are different from our culture, it really helps us to understand, oh yeah, is that really cultural, or is that really talk about the faith aspect that we want to pass along? So opening up for a conversation, open up for dialog open up for changes is important approach, as we are thinking for what is best and what is the good thing that we want to pass along for the next generation, because at the end, what works the best for the next generation, they are the one who know the best, not the first generation. The first generation need to be the one more open. How can we support you, not about what this is, what you need to approach.
[John Borthwick]
And that's hard. That's hard for the older generation at times. Yeah, it's, it's, it's especially poignant when, when you try to you mentioned earlier about caring for, I think you used the term hospice, even sort of caring for
[Pablo Kim Sun]
what's dying.
[John Borthwick]
yes, caring for what's dying. Very nice. Thank you. And yeah, there's been those poignant moments where people have been telling their story, their faith story, really, you know, like when I went to church, this is what was meaningful to me and important to me, and then we share the same things to our kids and, you know, and what we should be doing now is all those things. And then when you just make that connection, and ever so gently and kindly as you can, right, so what you're telling me is all the things that you did in church that were meaningful to you, you think we should do now because you imparted those to your children, and your children haven't stayed in the church, or haven't continued with the church. I'm not sure we're making the connection that you know the things that you imparted, that you said they had to learn and must do, didn't stick in some way. And so how do we move forward with that?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
That's hard, yeah, and thinking about the second generation here is, sometimes there are also confused about when people, when the older generation, impose something to them, they could also see that, that it's faith, that it's not cultural. And so then, well, then if this is faith, I going to reject this faith. But actually what they're really rejecting was the rigidity or that cultural aspect of the faith, not the faith itself. And so it's very heartbreaking when people, when the younger generation, reject faith, but what they really were struggling were not the faith aspect of the gospel. But the other culture aspect of the practices that the older generation have continued, which have worked for them, but not for the new generation.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, I think, I think this is an aspect we could talk about a lot. I'm just, I'm really ruminating around things like the things that we that we attach to faith that aren't really, that are really more about our culture. So it could even be about how expressive we are in worship. I can remember being raised by a family that were of Scottish, Irish types, who was showing emotion and being lively, perhaps in a church place was just not appropriate. Like, that's just not what you did. You weren't allowed to be excited and happy. Those people did that, but never us. And it was kind of an interesting notion of so just like you say, oh, okay, so if I want to be Presbyterian, I guess I'm not allowed to be happy and expressive in a worship setting. That would be inappropriate and but that's not what I read in the scriptures, but, but sure, you know, apparently, to be Presbyterian, you just don't do that. But then I find other Presbyterian churches where people are happy and are joyful. Maybe they've taken another step along the way. But there is that notion of imposing that kind of culture that's based on really an Anglo-Saxon culture, that it doesn't get in touch with its own emotions and doesn't deal with happy, happy, joy, joy, very, very well. It has challenges, right?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, that's right, fascinating.
[John Borthwick]
So at the end of the multicultural chapter. This one really stood out for me. You asked these really important questions, and I've changed up just one of them, just because it said specifically Mennonite. I think it's a question that could be for anything in the Canadian church. But I wanted to share the questions, and then wondered if you could help maybe unpack a bit of that for our listeners today. So you ask these questions, what does it mean to be a faithful church in Canada? How should we deal with the diversity and difference that exists within and outside of the church? How can we embody an alternative community, a messianic community, which you unpack in the book. So do read the book and be a witness to peace in this society, what beliefs and practices might be a hindrance to a church that desires to become intercultural? And what would a Canadian you say, Mennonite, or any denomination intercultural chook church look like? Clearly, people will need to read the book to get you know a better sense of how you've unpacked these kind of answers to these questions throughout the book, which you do really, really, really well. But I wonder if you just to stimulate our listeners interest and thinking around these kind of questions, and especially considering the current reality that we're facing today in our global society, in our global church, even as we navigate our neighbors to the south, which Pierre, former Prime Minister, the late Prime Minister, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, said, said it best in 1969 speaking about multiculturalism as well, it's like sleeping next to an elephant can be a little uncomfortable, and whenever that thing moves, look out. So wondering, yeah, if you can give us some thoughts to stimulate our thinking around some of these big questions you're asking,
[Pablo Kim Sun]
yeah, and those questions were meant for people to come up with their own answer, so that they can come out of what it means to be a faithfully following Christ in a context, in a specific context that we're living into it. So if you are in a rural area, you might have a different answer. If you're in an urban area, your answer might be a bit different. But wherever you are, we all in being invited to ask ourselves, what does it mean to faithfully Christ wherever, where we are placed? But I've been reflecting this question, and thank you for sending that question prior to our meeting for a conversation here, and I give them more thought, and I'm just thinking, what time is are we living now? Because by the time when I submitted my manuscript to be published, it was like a year ago, or a bit more than a year, and now we are living in a very different environment. So it's something that we should consider, but just reflecting where we are today, here in North America, and when I mean North America specifically, or Canada and the US, we are living a time when differences are often treated as problems or sources of division, and then this feels polarization and fragmentation. And in the US, for example, we are seeing movement seeking to erase of sensor differences in viewpoints and in social media also amplify this by creating a. Echo chambers through algorithm that mostly expose us to voices we already agree with them. So then opinion become facts, and on top of that, the rise of AI has intensified disinformation and misinformation. So instead of engaging one another in real relationship and asking good questions, people are increasingly outsourcing truth to technologies and technologies that for most part are designed and controlled by a narrow group of people, namely white tech roles, and in this sense, AI can actually accelerate assimilation rather than encourage authentic diversity. So against this backdrop, the churches has a prophetic role when we live to appreciate and bring differences, when we practice navigating them together with humility and care. We are offering the world an alternative way of being when we truly love one another across our differences, the world can see that we are followers of Christ, that I believe is part of what it means to be a faithful community of Jesus in here in Canada and in relation to our southern neighbor, the elephant in the room is tempting to retreat into nationalism to protect something. Pride and gratitude for a country are not wrong in themselves, but as Christians, our identity cannot be reduced to national boundaries. Our deeper identity is rooted in Christ, and it calls us to embody a community that transcends borders, embraces diversities and bear witness to God's Shalom. So that is, what is my reflection of based on your very good question of where we are today, in today's situation and context
[John Borthwick]
well, and as I said at the beginning, listeners, this is why I get more inspired every time I listen to Pablo. I appreciate you. Pablo. Thank you. Wow. Lots to think about in that way. I recognize it's early days. You're just over the year mark, in your first year of what we hope will be many but, you know, we understand there's a term, but maybe it's a loose term, you know, could be widened. Could you comment on where you're seeing some hope for our journey towards an intercultural church. And I'm trying to keep this podcast a safe space for you, my friend, for you, and for you and I, as you know, employees of Team PCC. Yours may be perhaps a little more than mine, but still, if you wanted, even if you'd want to break out of the PCC bubble, perfectly fine, but maybe what glimmers of inspiration you might be finding for us that you could even point to for us as Presbyterians, you know, places you're seeing some really interesting things that relate to this vision for a truly critical, intercultural church today, because I know You've got other experiences in other denominations as well. So wherever you want to go with this, I'm open to hearing some more inspiration,
[Pablo Kim Sun]
yeah, for sure. Well, I want to share the one of our exciting initiative that I'm working with, Priya Andrad, with our Intercultural Program Coordinator. So this is a program specifically for the PCC denomination, and that is Priya and I are deciding to run an online learning program. Is in total, three courses, one course is done developing, and now we're in a pre-pilot stage, and in October, we'll go into a pilot stage, and hoping to launch this formally in February, 2026, for all the PCC churches and members across Canada, I won't be able to travel all the 400 more than 473 churches across Canada, so we want to really utilize this online platform for learning experiences for churches who are hungry and yearning to learn more about online learning in this topic of intercultural engagement. And each program is meant to be to focus for around two to three months of time period. It's not very intensive. It's very good amount of learning that we have worked on, and I think it's very interactive. So it's not like you're downloading a PDF and reading it, but rather, it's very interactive approach of learning, and I'm hoping that people be interested. So that is what I'm. Really looking for to launch and share so and make it as accessible as possible across all the Canada, Canadian platform, as for more beyond the bubble of the PCC, when I started to do my PhD here in Canada, United Church of Canada was the only denomination that had this dedicated intercultural leadership role. Then by the time I was done with my dissertation, I see CRC, the Christian Reformed Church in North America, creating a similar position. I also see how Lutheran denomination also creating Baptist denomination, creating Mennonite denomination, creating this position. And now we see how PCC is also created. Have created this position. So I'm seeing a lot of need and desires across the Canadian landscape. And as you might know, Canadian Council churches through forum for intercultural Leadership and Learning, have been providing this intercultural leadership learning journey, and Tindale intercultural Ministry Center also have been providing the learning opportunities. So my hope is that as we collaborate with all these different circles and organizations, that we could collectively make some differences and meaningful changes, not for only for one denomination, but across Canadian church landscape. And I'm hoping, as more of this initiative can develop, that we as the Canadian churches could be leaders in this area and really be an encouragement and inspiration to the global churches, because I think we're in a good position to be to do this kind of work and model this kind of work that could really inspire other denomination around the world, and to help them imagine and work on what It means to be intercultural in their own unique context and situation, and when we do that, I really believe that when we bring the best of our tradition, practices, wisdom, science and art together, we're going to create something beautiful and holy that is mutually transformative to us all. So that is what I'm really inspiring, aspiring and seeking for.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, for sure. The I mean we, we Christians tend to talk to each other. So you know, seeing, seeing another church doing something similar and seeing what, what an impact it may be having in different denominations, and learning from each other, I think will be a great exchange as well, through your connections and beyond. I think that's, yeah, that's a beautiful tapestry of opportunities that I hope can come our way, for sure, and I can speak. I got a chance to meet Priya A while back, and she's a gift and a gift to your office, and certainly will be a gift to use her skills and passion for this work to develop what you're developing. So kudos to you both. It's nice to have two people now it's not all on you. That's wonderful. Is there anything, Pablo, that I haven't asked you, that you wish I just I wish had I had asked you?
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, well, I want to maybe comment this that one of the think, what I think or topic, Why think this is such an important topic, it's not because I have this romanticized understanding of diversity. Diversity work is very challenging. Let's put this let's be clear, it's very challenging and messy, because you're not only talking about culture, you're talking about personalities, and you're talking about all these different baggages people bring and traumas. And when you bring people with traumas changes, talking about changes could be very traumatic, so it's very complicated work that to be done very carefully, even though you're doing your best, still you could fail. So it's a messy work. So I don't have any romantic science concept of diversity. It's challenging. But one of the reason, not only do I have a theological and biblical inspiration of why we need to become intercultural, but another factor is just for the sake of our humanity, we are living in a time where a lot of scientists are talking about poly crisis. It's not just lot of crisis. It's just the poly crisis is we're living a time, unprecedented time where multiple. Global crisis intersect shape and make the situation worse, like climate change, economic instability, political upheaval, social fragmentation, they're all converging, and in order for us humans to really survive and thrive this time, we need to know how to effectively draw the best practices, science, insight and wisdom from Arabic culture, because we're now in a time where no solution will come from one cultural group. So that intercultural work is not only an optional or something beautiful to put out there is essential strategy for resilience, innovation and mutual flourishing. So just as a healthy ecosystem depends on the interdependence of diverse species, intercultural work is about creating a thriving hole where each culture, tradition and wisdom contributes to the well-being of the larger community. So in a sense, it's go beyond inclusion. It's helping us to survive into this very critical moment, in a very challenging moment we are and when we bring on the best challenges and practices, I believe we could also overcome these challenges.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, another, another dose of inspiration. Pablo, for sure. That's why I so love I so love that you, when you first started talking about the work that you were going to doing, going to be doing, you talked about an ecosystem, and just having that sense of, you know, ecosystems thrive when everything in the ecosystem is thriving. And so how are we how are we pulling together to make sure that everything in the ecosystem can thrive and not just survive, but thrive and flourish? I think that's beautiful, a bit traumatizing around the poly crisis, but unfortunately, I personally am far too linked into all that kind of world. And I try to, I try to, again, you've given me hope that I, as I and even as I read diverse authors on, you know, the future and what, how we're addressing some of these crises, absolutely, what they say is, you know, there's got to be some kind of coming together of people from various disciplines, various cultures, various communities, and there has to be more collaboration, more working together if we're ever going to have hope of everyone in this ecosystem thriving and flourishing for sure. For sure. Pablo, I wonder if I could end on a moment of celebratory promotion is there's nothing. I don't think it's shameless to promote oneself. So you've already mentioned that you're you and Priya are working on these courses. Are there other things in your office that you wanted to let, maybe our listeners know, even as a sneak peek, that we should take note of? And if there's anything you want to share, you can send me some links, and I'll put it in our show notes for people to follow up on if they'd like or maybe you want to talk about your next book. I don't know. Maybe you're working on another book. You're an author guy now.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Yeah, thank you. Well, another exciting thing that our office is working is so much of the theme to culture could end up becoming head knowledge. So what become very important as a next step, other than those online courses, is how can we implement what we have learned here? And lot of learning comes from cohort learning. So we're planning to launch some of the church cohort programs sometime next year. So we're in the early stage of developing, and we have people who will be helping with that cohort learning where it does, where a focus, of course, of learning, but a focus about more. What can we do as a church, specific changes can we make in our churches during this cohort? So it's a hands on practical learning, and it is more like a peer to peer learning approach. So it's not like someone like me come and say, This is what it should be like cohort, but rather churches bring their stories, their challenges and opportunities, how God have been working, and through those stories, we get to discover together what are some changes that God is inviting us to do in our specific local congregations, and then sort of mentoring and supporting throughout this month will be helping and encouraging each churches to commit to the changes that they have outlined in the beginning of the cohort program. By the end of the cohort program, they have at least something specific thing that they have implemented and share their feedback. And it's totally okay if those practices have not gone well, because it is a learning moment. But the more we have those kind of stories, we could also share, collect those stories and. Share to the wider denomination, so they can also inspire other churches who are trying to or wanting to become intercultural. So that is another thing that I'm looking for. Sometime next year, I also recognize how my book on building Mennonite belonging is very theoretical and academic. So now that I have worked with CRC for three years and now with PCC two years, but prior to that, have worked with Mennonite and with the Canadian Council churches, I think it's about time to focus on how we do this intercultural work. The book here building Mennonite belonging is more about why this is important, and what are some theological and sociological barriers that we are experiencing the churches to becoming the cultural I wanted to write my second book. My next book will be more about a practical aspect of how can we implement these changes in specific places and provide some key tools and insight that have learned along the way. So that is what I'm working on.
[John Borthwick]
So awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Pablo, the I'm assuming maybe a little bit because it's, it's what all the kids are using these days. Sub stack I've had the privilege of reading a little bit of your sub stack along the way. Really interesting read, really engaging and inspiring. As I as I've read through them, we're going to have that in our show notes. Of course, your sub stack is that a bit of how you're teasing out, sort of some of the thoughts of what you might be want to percolate for your next book.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
That's right, I began just to share some insight, but then as I started to write this substack blog and hear people's feedback, and seeing this positive feedback, I'm realizing this, I could use this platform as a way to see what people are interested, and based on that, have an expanded version of this blog that becomes a book, and maybe, as I become a book, people could also contribute, share their thoughts or comments of my manuscript and see where it goes from there. So I got my inspiration there.
[John Borthwick]
That's awesome. Yeah. So it's a great read, and would really encourage our listeners to subscribe to your substack. It's, yeah, really interesting, the kind of stories you're sharing and and what how you're seeing the world in this in this milieu of an intercultural church, a critical one. In fact, Pablo, I always enjoy having conversations with you. I'm so glad we could do this podcast recording and share you with our ministry forum community. I hope people will connect with you, and as you start to roll out some of the things you're doing, I really hope they that our little PCC starts to engage with some of the awesome stuff that you're bringing to us. You're such a gift for our denomination to have as a resource, as a inspiration, and as just a good friend in ministry. Thank you so much for joining me today.
[Pablo Kim Sun]
Oh, thank you, John. This has been a very rich conversation.
[John Borthwick]
Appreciate thanks for joining us today on the ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way. If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues. Tell Someone, please don't keep us a secret, and of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you. And honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either. And don't forget to follow us on social media at ministry forum, on all of our channels. You can visit our website at ministryforum.ca for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community until next time. May God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do. May you be fearless, not reckless, and may you be well in body, mind and spirit, and may you be at peace.