Interview with The Rev. Dr. P.A. (Sandy) McDonald (former Moderator and perhaps longest serving minister in one congregation)
Summary:
Rev. John Borthwick sits down with The Rev. Dr. P.A. Sandy MacDonald, a Knox College alumnus, former Moderator of the General Assembly of The Presbyterian Church in Canada, and a minister whose remarkable 56-year pastorate at St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, exemplifies a life of steadfast faith and service.
Sandy reflects on his rural upbringing near Stratford, Ontario, his early passion for church music as an organist, and his theological journey through Knox College. He candidly shares how his career unfolded, beginning with an Ordained Missionary appointment that he never left—a rare, lifelong commitment to one congregation.
Quotables:
“I would encourage people to always sit down from time to time and think about their stewardship of time and their stewardship of ministry in their own environment.There was a time when churches worked on the pattern of four to seven years (it was called in way back). [You] went on horseback, you went to a place, you stayed for five or seven years, and then you moved on.” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
“Well, I think the fact that you had a long continuity with a lot of the same people actually was, turned out, was sustaining. You felt the support, the encouragement. I don't think I got stale, because through continuing ed and other things, I tried to be alert through my reading and listening. So I can't point to any one particular thing, but I don't think, somebody else would have to make this judgment. But I don't think I had this ever had the sense that I was being stale or that there was nothing fresh going on. And I recall a couple of elders saying to me that they appreciated the fact that I often brought some ideas for them to reflect on, not pushing but saying, is this something we should be looking at as a way of enriching or expanding or deepening our ministry. And I remember one or two elders saying we always appreciated that stimulation, that you didn't push us into something new, but you didn't let us sit there and say, Oh, this is a nice church with a nice thing, and session meetings were over in 10 minutes, right? I initiated some changes in. Got them to think about making changes and how they govern themselves, or how they dealt with ideas and notions and possibilities. I did a lot of that kind of encouragement. ” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
“…if you look at the early church, you know, there's no bed of roses. So why should we think that the church should now be like the 50s?” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
“I guess I would encourage the person to learn the meaning of hang in there or or not just endurance, but of a stick with ness of perseverance, of don't judge things by the ebb and flow, to try and take a longer view of what's taking place in the church. And keeping in mind that the church has struggled and had its issues of division and so on since well, read the book of Acts, or elsewhere. So I think we have to become a little more. We have to, I would encourage current Sandy to have the image of riding the waves, a bit of not being enveloped by a particular wave or approach or concern, but trying to find ways that help you to be sustained, or To be sustaining in a time of bumpiness” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
“Introspection, some self-study, some careful listening, watching, looking, seeing what's being endeavored or tried in other traditions or in other congregations or in other presbyteries. Means training the ear really, well so that you can hear a little bit above the din, or here through the din, that would be the kind of thing. All life isn't running to a fire, so that everything can't be like it was, say, in the 50s, or whenever, when it was blossoming with churches. But churches can blossom even as they did during World War II, some of the amazing stories that come out of perseverance and out of consistent service and obedience. So I think a lot of it depends on listening and discerning, and trying to see a little bit beyond the din.” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
“I still think it's important to have a sharp eye to the past as we look ahead to the future. What's sustaining and what was problematic, and that should help us make some, I think, helpful judgments.” - Rev. Dr. Sandy Mcdonald
About The Rev. Dr. P.A. Sandy McDonald
The Rev. Dr. P.A. Sandy McDonald has dedicated his life to ministry with a legacy of steadfast leadership and pastoral care. As Moderator of the 129th General Assembly of The Presbyterian Church in Canada, he served with wisdom and grace.
Ordained in 1968, Sandy spent his entire 56-year pastoral career at St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, nurturing generations through worship, sacraments, and deep community connections. His commitment to long-term ministry reflects his belief in the power of continuity and relationships.
For over 53 years, Sandy also served as Clerk of the Presbytery of Halifax-Lunenburg, offering vital leadership and administrative support. His passion for Christian camping led to decades of involvement with Camp Geddie, fostering faith formation across generations.
Now retired, Sandy continues to serve through pulpit supply, presbytery leadership, and mentorship, embodying a ministry marked by faithful perseverance and pastoral care.
Additional Resources:
Moderator of the 129th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Canada
Served St. Andrew's, Dartmouth for 56 years.
Clerk of the Presbytery of Halifax-Lunenburg for 53 years
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the Ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
[John Borthwick]
Welcome, we're on the road in Truro Nova Scotia for the Synod of the Atlantic provinces this week, and I'm delighted to have the chance to talk with The Rev. Dr P.A. Sandy McDonald, Knox College alum, former moderator of the PCC and a friend in ministry over the years. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And for those who don't know Sandy, you are really in for a treat when you learn about his life in ministry, talk about long obedience in the same direction.
Welcome Sandy and thanks for agreeing to be on our ministry Forum Podcast, as we record today live from a lovely hotel room in Truro. I wonder if you'd start Sandy by sharing a little bit about yourself. However you would want to introduce yourself or share a bit of your story.
[Sandy MacDonald]
Thank you, John. I grew up in a rural community on a farm near Stratford, Ontario. My father was a dairy and pig farmer, and so I was very much involved in the life of the firemen, worked there while I was in college during the summer months. By the time I was 14, 15, 16, I had the notion of entering ministry. Two of my uncles were clergy, so that made a difference the Davidsons, in our tradition. They certainly had an influence upon me, even though one of them lived in Western Canada all his ministry. But I was always intrigued or drawn to the idea of the church and the ministry. We were raised in a tiny, little United Church in the community where my parents farm was, and was through different family things that brought us eventually to the big city, to Knox church in Stratford. And that's where I was finally ordained in May of 1968.
I took a lot of interest in music, and I became an organist, mostly in Anglican churches during my journey. It was a way of gaining a little bit of financial support when I was in university, playing on the weekends, and I used to travel by bus to Knox church in Stratford on Sundays from the University of Western Ontario, Western I think they call it now, in order to provide the music for Knox church. Then hop the bus again at one o'clock and go back to school. So that was kind of intriguing, fascinating, too. I was the world's best organist, but I was able to play so that provided Knox. Knox has a very large organ, and they were having trouble finding somebody that was in the mid 60s, I guess.
Anyway, so I think that's my interest in music and church music, my interest in farming. My schooling was at the University of Western Ontario in a pre- I would, if I had to do it over again. I wouldn't take the courses that I took then. I liked the courses, but I got my Hebrew as part of my BA degree, which is fine. I didn't have to do Hebrew at Knox College, but at least not learning it, but it meant you had courses in sociology or psychology or philosophy, even some other courses that you should have really been taken in preparation for ministry. That was somewhat of an error. It didn't do me any harm, but I don't think I got as much benefit out of a BA as I might well have done with it not being. In a pre-theology program. I should have just studied in the area of philosophy and psychology and sociology.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
So did you get a BA in theology?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Or, well, it was called a pre theology Bachelor of Arts,
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Okay
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Or bachelor I don't think they ever put the word pre theology. Well, maybe it's on my on my graduations paper, I don't think so. I think it just says, BA
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Okay
[SANDY MACDONALD]
So I mean, the program is fine, but I should have made different choices, but they had that on their curriculum, and because it you got your Greek and your Hebrew, it did prepare you for Knox College, because you didn't have to learn a language along with all the other pro so it was, I guess it was a good balance, but I think if I had to do it over again, I would have studied more In areas of sociology, psychology, philosophy. Didn't do that. So that's a bit of an introduction to my life.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
And we have a connection. I was the minister at St Andrews in Guelph for 20-some-odd years, 21 years, and we were talking again today about you were a student minister there for a period of time during your studies at Knox College, you'd come up on the bus or the
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Train, actually, yeah. They had a practice where whoever was the student helped Mr. Thompson and the session find the next student. So it was Reverend Dr. Robinson, who, I think, conscripted or recruited me, and then I think I might have helped them a little bit. Was Robin Ross, I forget who the next one was after me, but there was that kind of ongoing thing. So St Andrews Guelph, was very committed to, I think, helping with persons preparing for ministry, and in particular, working with an Knox College. Forbes Thompson was the clergy at that point, and he seemed very interested in students. We maintained a friendship after we left there. So that was, that was a meaningful part of the journey at Knox College, was having that kind of involvement for field training. It was not as structured as maybe somewhere, but on the other hand, it exposed you some to some really remarkable features of ministry and some things that were a little trying.
I remember one time on a Sunday, just before the service, the minister warned me. He said, it's a bit tricky here these days, the police are standing outside the door for the service today, there was somebody who was acting up, and so they had to keep an eye for him. But kind of drama happens in a lot of churches, yeah, but it was an interesting exposure to feelings and attitudes and responses to whatever it was that was going on. I don't know if I was ever fully made aware of what was going on, but or with whom, but some of it didn't take too long to figure out.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, the legends that I've heard of Forbes Thompson were quite something. He was a unique kind of Minister, I think, in some ways, very involved in sports and activities that way. But also, how would you say a very passionate man, from what I heard.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
He was and he was an ongoing student. He kept up with his reading. He was somewhat of accused of spoken of him as being fairly academic, but his feet were on the ground. He was definitely a pastor. He knew his people. He responded to them. He was pretty all round, but he had a strong interest in following sports. And in his earlier years, he was a sportsman. He was a remarkable fellow. I think at congregation was very fortunate, and the leadership that he offered.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, lots of folks that were there, when I was there, spoke really, really highly of him and really appreciated him. And again. St Andrews, I think this is on our theme of a bit of your ministry. I think in many ways, St Andrews did benefit in the sense that when I graduated, or after I've graduated, I know colleagues, So I've been out for maybe, let's say, just over 25 years, I know colleagues who've been who have served in like maybe five different churches in 25 years, or four different churches in 25 years. St Andrew's Guelph, when I came, I was the third minister. Or when I left, I was the third minister to serve that congregation in a span of 60 years. They've had some. Long serving ministers, yeah. And so for yourself, one of the reasons to speak to you is, in a way, you're kind of, I don't know if it's legendary, but you went to, I assume it would have been your OM appointment, your ordained missionary appointment.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Yeah, in the days that I began, you were, shall I say, forced, or it was required that you took a no, I'm year, that disappeared not too many years after that. But I was ordained in 1968 and because with the OM year, you had to spend a year in your own, what they called your ordained missionary charge, and then you were free to go elsewhere if you wanted. A lot of my classmates couldn't wait to move. I guess that's what they said. But I was one of the few that stayed put. Stayed for 56 years, actually. In one of the church I was appointed to three it was one, two-point charge and one one-point charge, which was six, and what they called, in those days, extension work. So that was the official appointment with the other two on the side, as it were.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
And what were those? Specifically.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Oh, the churches. Yeah. Iona church in Dartmouth, which, in those days was what they called an extension charge. It was only four years old. Was worshiping a school. It was Dartmouth was growing rapidly, very rapidly then. And so these folks were siphoned off, as it were from St Andrews. But because that, they were the folk, the ones that established Iona church. They were the folk that, shall we say, had the dollars, or were very much involved in giving generously. They when they left St Andrews. St Andrews was in quite a predicament. So, the task I had was to help Iona get going. They couldn't buy land. There was an absentee landlord. They knew the land they wanted, and St Andrews had a deep debt, and so the work was to work on the debt.
And then there was a rural point called attached to St Andrews, called Musquadoboit Harbour. It closed in 2010, but it was an interesting little group of people. But it was a post 25 congregation with a bigger and better building than the United Church had. But the United Church is still there and we're not. It was a really interesting group of people to work with, but they became smaller in population. One of the unfortunate things was that they worshiped even when I got there every second week. So, you don't build a church in a somewhat growing community with two services a month.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
So when you went out there, you were serving three churches.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
You had one Sunday. You had two services in the morning, 930 and 11, and then the next Sunday would be 930 and 11, and 7. I eventually got to 7 so that in the fall, winter and spring was dark, you weren't making this long. It was 26 miles, or whatever kilometers that is. So that was burdensome. So we got to switch to the evening and the summer, I think, and then afternoon in the winter.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
And the congregation he retired out of was
[SANDY MACDONALD]
St. Andrews when I went, even though Iona was the main appointment with St Andrews and Musquadoboit on the side this the manse they placed us in was the St Andrews manse, and the place where my study was at St Andrews. So when it came time to make a change, which was in the mid-70s, it seemed logical, either to leave, which some said that's what you should do, or to choose one and work there. And I think choosing one and staying there worked out fairly well, as far as I know. I maybe I'm not very objective, but certainly worked well for me in St Andrews, and Iona’s had several ministers. And so I think it was, it was okay to stay, but in the thinking of the 50s and 60s and 70s, things were looked at pretty, some people might say squarely, and the idea may have been that in the minds of some well, you have to leave, you have to leave the community, and so on. But that didn't happen. And I got, I worked along for a while, the minister at Iona and I worked together, and then gradually that person took Iona, and I took St Andrews and Escanaba. Did you
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
When you were in Knox College or seminary? Did you, did you always think you'd be or would want to serve in a long pastorate? Or did they were there any influences at Knox College, saying around expectations that way? like you would serve multiple churches over your lifetime? I'm just curious about well, or was it just you were
[SANDY MACDONALD]
That might have been the assumption that coming out of the 50s, when I think a lot of ministers changed every 5 to 10 years, I don't think I gave it. Recall giving it much thought, and the main concern in the latter days at Knox College was the Mission Board and their process of making appointments. So about the length of pastorate, I was approached a few times in those 56 years to consider calls but or to do something at 50 Winford Drive, but I didn't respond to any of those. I thought about them and considered them and prayed about them, but I never remember being in a flap over what's going to happen next.
It just, I think it just happened that you stayed on, I was very involved with the Synod camp called Camp Geddie, which I still am involved with. And secondly, as the clerk of the presbytery of Halifax and Lunenburg in that kind of administrative arm of the church's life, which is a part of that church's life that I think I have gifts for. And so I've been the clerk of the presbytery of Halifax and Lunenburg for probably 53 years, 52 so that's a little bit like the parish or the congregation there for a long time, that our maybe this is getting ahead of myself, but our presbytery is facing the same problems that I think are happening, not only in our church nationally, but in other traditions where they're just dwindling number of people going to congregations and participating in them. So we're coming. We've just closed two or three congregations in the last year. But one of them was down to one person or two people. But it's on the horizon for a couple of others. So it's, it's a challenging time, definitely. I guess, the camping arm in the church and the administrative arm, besides congregation life with a curious now, I was involved with some national committees like the ministry, Well, it's called the assembly Council. Now I did determine that I did two terms on the board of Knox College, quite far apart. One was in the early 80s. The other one would have been in, I don't know, in the team. What do you call it, the months or the years between 0 and 10.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
I forget millennia or something.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Yeah, so I think that might have been the one that's second period was into the into the teens. And I also did a term on the two terms on the life admission agency, one, I suspect, in the 90s, and the other one in the latter part of the first 10 years of the of the new of the 20s.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
So certainly, offering a lot of your gifts to the to the courts of the church, the wider church, camping and all those kind of things.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Yeah, I think so, yeah. I was very much. Don't think the congregation suffered too much. I I know I worked really hard in the year, 20 years that I was the almost 20 years that I was the pastor in the chaplain in the police service of Dartmouth,
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Right.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Because a lot of the calls that you were required for were at two in the morning, not at two in the afternoon, but building relationships, giving some counsel where it was sought, did some funerals, one or two weddings, but primarily it was to help them when they were in difficult situations, with clients. People who had been in families, who had been afflicted by a sudden car accident, death or a suicide or whatever, and it was to help the officer do his work.
Unfortunately, they don't have it now, but it was much appreciated. I made a lot of good friends. I play a lot of racquetball, and so I had ready made partners. That was a good experience. So that was over and above all these other things,
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Right.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
So I for this 19 years. I think I gave it up when I was chosen as the nominee for moderator of the General Assembly. It seemed like a good time to make the break, but that was an interesting way by which St Andrew's Church provided assistance to the community through there was no pay involved, and it was sort of volunteer. They were fairly reliant on it, and they had to be schooled a little bit when they wanted you for something, they might call you three hours before you would go. So I had to say to them, Okay, call me five minutes before we're to go somewhere. You don't call me three hours,
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Right.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
So they, they picked up their ways, and I respect. But that was a very interesting form of ministry, establishing bonds with these people, these officers, and helping them do some of their work.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, in my 20 years in Guelph, I, I served for seven years as the chaplain to the Guelph police service. And, yeah, same kind of resonance of this was a way that St Andrews Guelph could because you couldn't ask the entire congregation to go and be the chaplain, and the police service didn't want that, but, but a way of extending their outreach and their ministry. I sense within what you're describing, for some you know, 56 years would seem like, wow, that's a incredibly long kind of ministry experience, But there's this rootedness you have in that community and sort of different things that come your way through the national church engagement, the courts of the church. You plant roots in a place, and then when someone says, Hey, Sandy, would you like to go somewhere else you part of your consideration is, but I'm there's, there's something about being planted in a space and continuing to grow those relationships, right?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I think that that would be a really good way of describing it. For example, is in the next week or so, there's going to be a memorial service in St. Andrew’s Lunenburg for the Rev. Laurence Mawhinney, who died at the beginning of COVID, and his spouse who died this past summer. Nothing was ever held when he died of a public nature, and he'd been the mayor for 32 years besides. So I was interim moderator of that church for more years than in fact, I was interim moderator twice. So you had the this involvement with other churches in the presbytery, which didn't seem like something that I want us ever.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
yeah, yeah, you build those relationships.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
yeah, I think so and so you take a little good nature teasing. I heard somebody made a remark last night on the floor of the Synod, and I I didn't know it was dragged at me at first, but I forget what they said something anyway. Yeah, people chuckle. I think most people knew what they talked about, and I didn't either at first, yeah, but I do have a bit of a reputation as being a person who likes to josh around a bit, if that's such a word.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
yeah, from what you know, are you the longest serving or has someone got you beat in the history, in the annals of history of the PCC? Well, 56 years in one space.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I think it's close to that. There was Harry Rodney. Was in Knox church, St Thomas or that, plus his other years in ministry before he went there.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Right.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Very long, I think was close to 50 years, and the minister in St Andrews in what's now called Thunder Bay. He was a lawyer as well as a minister. I think he studied law and theology at the same time. He was moderator of the assembly, and his name momentarily escapes me. There are a couple that are quite long. I don't know whether mine, as long as nobody's ever I don't know if there's anybody studying that kind of history. But, those are the two that come to my mind as being extremely there were other long ministries, 30, 40, years. But how many were 56.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Well, you don't get an award for it.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I mean, it's oh no, you just serve and do your thing. it's an ongoing thing, yeah, interesting for somebody in the archives or somewhere to have a look at. There were some that were pretty long, and some of them were very long at I think, yeah, the Presbyterian College Montreal, maybe. But I know whether I'm the longest or not, but I guess it's close to being that simply because Dr Rodney and the minister in Thunder Bay, his name escapes me, or they were very long, but they were either by that long.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
What would you describe as the, the, the, the best blessing or the best thing about being a minister in one place? Place with a congregation for 56 years. What would be the best thing?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
The best thing that would be, I guess, the continuity of the relationships. I don't think I ever got stale. I was always looking out for ways in which we might expand something, or do some things differently, or lift up the gospel in other ways. The best thing, I guess, was the continuity. And of course, it was continuity for my family. I've lost one of my best friends in the Iona congregation just this week. And my children knew this person really well. Yes, we knew the person really well. The person had a long history in the church. His father was a Presbyterian minister in the Maritimes and elsewhere. So the bonds that you establish, the continuity, I guess that would be, What's the best? I'm trying to be precise, I think that would be the best, the sense that you're working through with a household or with a family, with their extended family for a long period of time.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, I was only, I was only at St Andrews for 21 years, and yeah, I would say a similar thing of that continuity. When I arrived, I met teenagers of a family, and eventually I had the opportunity to marry those teenagers. And then those, then those who got married had children, I got a chance to baptize their kids, and then I had the opportunity to be present for the funerals for their grandparents and things like that. I assume if I stayed another 30 years, I'd quite possibly be having all sorts of iterations as family life continues for that family. And yeah, those were the one of the nicest blessings in my ministry was one of the last things I got to do was baptize again, a girl who was like a teenage girl when I first met her, when I arrived, it was her the bapti[Sandy MacDonald] of her child was the last bapti[Sandy MacDonald] I had done at the congregation in the last couple of weeks before I left. That was kind of a nice moment to sort of encapsulate having started and and being been with that family for so long.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I think that's an interesting feature of ministry. When you have a bit of an arc or you have some continuity, that was what I found. And so I was always making, trying to make sure in my thinking, that I wasn't outstaying my welcome. Always you wanted to be somewhat sure of that, not that you can ever be totally sure unless there's something going amiss.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah. Well, and I think, I think the other, the other interesting thing about long, long serving pastorates is, and I had people reflect this to me over my years, you're not the same person like you. You arrived in 1968. And then, you know, 2023, you're a very different person than you were that time. And I had people saying that to me like, whether it's they would describe it as you've grown in ministry, or we've seen changes even around how you think about certain things or how you preach about certain things. I always keep my sermons. One of my professors said that he burned his sermons after every three years. I would keep them, and I would sometimes look back and go, Wow, that's what I thought about, that I wouldn't preach this sermon today, like, what was I thinking? Or sometime in my last, later years I gave them a chance to hear hear a sermon from before. So I preached a sermon from like, 20 years. It was an anniversary. I think of my being with them for 20 years. So I preached a sermon that I did at my preaching for the call weekend. So I preached that, then I said, and now I'm going to add how I would change that today. Yeah, there's sort of a growth in ministry. You grow alongside them.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Yeah, that's right, you're growing. You're changing, expanding. I've always made sure I took continuing education, things like that, and then being a clerk of prosperity, they started around 1990 having seminars for presbytery clerks, and that continues to this day. A lot of the focus is at those seminars now, is placed on particular features, administer particular subjects, but for those who are new at being presbytery clerks, and for those of us who are older, it's pretty important to be awake so that you don't do something that's totally off the wall and gets the church into troubles.
I was involved in the Synod, in a couple of commissions, and one of those commissions lasted four years. What a commission is only supposed to be, but one year, I think, was renewed once, twice. The third time, and not much happened. But the presbytery or someone associated with the problem we were dealing with, said, please stay, or hopefully the Synod will have you stay, not that we were doing anything, but that it would help to give, let's use the word stability, to the situation people with you're still there, then maybe they won't be going off in some of their preferred directions.
And I saw that last night they read the names at Synod of the people who had died recently, and one of them was one that with whom I worked in that situation of four years. It could be challenging, but he was also very dedicated person. So that's where you get involved in the nitty gritty of the church's life, as if you're at a commission. And fortunately, I had very good people to work with. I was, I guess I was the convener of the commission, wasn't I. It was hard work. We kept Via Rail in business. We would go on the train to northern New Brunswick. That's indicating now the presbytery where we were working. But no matter it was, it was a good learning experience about how to work together with an issue, the Committee of that constituted the commission was a very good listening committee. They listened well to one another, and I would argue that because they listened well to one another, they came easily to resolutions of that should be pursued. And didn't mean that we were we weren't criticized by the recipients of our work, but I think it helped us to build a strong bridge. But four years is a long time. I was moderator at the assembly. Still working around that stuff
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
well. And I think that's another aspect of what grounds you in a place, right? You there's still work to be done in the space you're doing it where considering leaving in that moment would not be something you'd be maybe open to at that time.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
yeah, not in the early part of the of this century, we'd have escaped a lot of hard work, but it was really interesting work, and we all kept we were all connected and stayed connected afterwards. Some of them are good acquaintances beforehand. But, you know, our relationships continue, and I think it was partly because of that work.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, well, I wonder as well, for those in ministry, sometimes folks will want to avoid that kind of stuff. It's like, I don't want to be in a commission, or I don't want to do a special committee, or, like, I got my own work to do. I would argue that some of those kinds of experiences can teach you a lot about your own approach to ministry. When you encounter and hear the stories of a congregation and a minister and what might have been the pathway to challenge and crisis and conflict, it can sometimes help you to influence how you how you do things, and how you might be received, or because you could be in the same place as that person that might be struggling, and just hearing how people understand that can be a great learning for you as a ministerial leader,
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Teaches you patience, if nothing else. No, it was, it was very helpful and I think the work of the commission was helpful to maintaining the lives of some congregations.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
for sure. Yeah, I just wanted to say a couple things about the Albin Institute. There was a guy named Roy Oswald, and I was at a conference one time where he had everyone put up their hand for years of service. So how many years? How many have been five years? How many have been 10? How many have been 15? And once he got to 15, he said to folks, now you can begin your ministry. And I think that's interesting when you see the average tenure is around five to seven, his notion was, yeah, at about 15, you might have enough credibility to begin what you'd like to do in ministry. And I certainly felt that I had sort of two seasons within my ministry where I described them as like a little bit of a honeymoon. Second honeymoon, maybe, and then also a season where I could really tell that there was a kind of some people use the phrase rent. Like you've paid the rent long enough that now you can start cashing in that rent a little bit and making some moves and taking some courageous decisions that you might have not taken earlier along you've got some trust within the organization or within the congregation. Yeah, would that be similar in your situation?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I think so. As I learned through experience and the passage of time, I think that served me well. There was a level of trust that was built up in the congregation. We had about the halfway point in my ministry at St Andrews, there was a challenging period for two or three years revolving around one household maybe. But it was a very penetrating time. Shall I say? It was memorable? It wasn't pleasant that left a lot of some scars, but in the end, was only one family that left, well maybe two households that left, the church, an elderly person from one household and a family. But the difficulties posed were, was pretty bruising for some people. Some people question their services elders, and it was a very tough, tough period. But that's not bad. In 56 years to say, to be able to point to two years that were so challenging,
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
That's amazing.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Not too many others. There were some other challenging situations, but nothing that came anywhere near that, and the church moved on. It was fortunate, it was this particular difficulty didn't affect the whole congregation. I don't think it did. I some of them wouldn't even know that there was anything going on.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
And so from someone who served over 50 years in one place, is a long term pastor, it's something that you would recommend to others in ministry. Would you encourage them to try and serve and see their ministry as more of a longer journey, as opposed to something where they're thinking about I might only be here for five or seven years.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Well, I certainly wouldn't. There's no such word, is there? I would not di-sencourage it. There's such a word, yeah, which there isn't. I would encourage people to always sit down from time to time and think about their stewardship of time and their stewardship of ministry in their own environment. I don't think there's, I mean, there was a time was there not when churches worked on what was it called? The pattern of four to seven years it was called in way back. It was sort of, it went on horseback, you went to a place, you stayed for five or seven years, and then you moved on. I can't find the word I'm looking for. Stewardship that was very limited, but by the I wouldn't encourage somebody to say, well, here you are. This is a good parish. This is a good place in God's vineyard to work. Stick it out. I would never make that kind of conversation, but I would not, on the other hand, as I said earlier, dis-encourage anybody who might be contemplating for serving for a longer period, whether it was in academia, some of our professors have served a long, long time. So I don't think there's a rule of thumb. I think it depends more on the situation of the parish or of the congregation or of the ministry, if it's in like the person sitting across from us at our meal today, somebody who's working with youth and camping ministry. That might be hard to do for a whole ministry, but I wouldn't say to someone, you really should be putting your nose to the grindstone and doing that. By the same token, I wouldn't say, Well, you know, when you've done a couple years, you should move on. Sorry, I think it's broader than the span or the length of time that passes.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, and, and how would you say you sustained yourself for those years of ministry? I had a colleague when I came to Guelph. He had served for maybe 30-some-odd years, maybe 35 in a United Church. And I asked him, you know, how did you, how did you do it? And his keys were, he took sabbaticals. He was in the United Church, so they had sabbaticals. He took sort of intentional sabbaticals, as people know, in the ministries. Community. I'm a big proponent of intermissions that our Presbyterian Church in Canada has. And the other thing he said, which I think is a part of what we've already talked about, is you got to remember that the congregation you're you started to serve, and as you serve that congregation, it's not the same people, it's not the same congregation. Things change. People change. And so just remember that, is there something for yourself that sustained you in the long service, in ministry?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Well, I think the fact that you had a long continuity with a lot of the same people actually was, turned out, was sustaining. You felt the support, the encouragement. I don't think I got stale, because through continuing ed and other things, I tried to be alert through my reading and listening. So I can't point to any one particular thing, but I don't think, somebody else would have to make this judgment. But I don't think I had this ever had the sense that I was being stale or that there was nothing fresh going on. And I recall a couple of elders saying to me that they appreciated the fact that I often brought some ideas for them to reflect on, not pushing but saying, is this something we should be looking at as a way of enriching or expanding or deepening our ministry. And I remember one or two elders saying we always appreciated that stimulation, that you didn't push us into something new, but you didn't let us sit there and say, Oh, this is a nice church with a nice thing, and session meetings were over in 10 minutes, right? I initiated some changes in. Got them to think about making changes and how they govern themselves, or how they dealt with ideas and notions and possibilities. I did a lot of that kind of
encouragement.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Now you mentioned already having served as moderator of the General Assembly. You've been a clerk for 53, 52 years. You've been on committees and task forces and commissions and assembly Council, life and mission agency, as you reflect back on those years is there? Maybe it's within the modertorial year, anything that really sticks out as a really memorable or a favorite moment, a meaningful moment for you in ministry, in any of those spaces, with serving the wider church beyond your congregation?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Well, one thing, a couple things stand out. One is what appears to be a long association with Camp Geddie and leadership there. I went to a camp in 1967 when I was a student minister on what's called Pictou Island. The church there is closed now, and that was my first trip to Camp Geddie. They thought I should have a week ago and off the island, and that got me involved in a kind of ministry. I'd never been to camp in my earlier years, because I lived on a farm, and that was camping season coincided with a busy farming season, so I'd never been in that. So I became committed to that, and my family was involved in it as well. They would spend time with me at the camp, and then some of them became involved in it as well. So I would regard that as one particular one. Just refresh me on
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Yeah, just around all the different things. moderatorial year, yeah, what stood out? What was memorable for you?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Modetorial year, I guess the part that was memorable for that was the connecting with people of various backgrounds and various ministries, and giving a word of support and encouraging to them, getting to know them better. So the Camping Ministry and the moderatorial year, the just kind of blending with people or connecting with people and giving them support and encouragement. And then in the agencies that I serve, such as the Knox College Board and the Life and Mission agency, the ways in which you tried to make a contribution, or maybe did make a contribution, to some of the studies they were doing, or some of the pursuits that they had at the time. So there were various ways by which I was enriched, but our hope was enriching other people.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
And having been so interconnected with the wider church for so many, for such a generation or a season, were there times in the church's life, the PCCs life, that you would have found that you would describe as really challenging, or challenged you personally. Is there anything specifically that stands out for you a season of the life of the PCC that you were concerned about, or you found personally difficult in all those different pieces? Because it seems like you've always been connected to the pulse of the PCC. Some ministers, not so much, but I sense that you've always had a sense of the wider church all the time.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Well, when I began my ministry, was at the end of the vigorous debate with respect to the ordination of women as ministers and elders that came to a conclusion, I think, just at the end of my second, No, my end of my first year as a summer student. But the following through on that and the denomination was certainly going on when I started in 1968 you had your first female commissioner from your presbytery, or first female on the eldership, whatever. And then toward the end of my ministry, was the, I suppose you could argue the next big issue that faced the Presbyterian Church in Canada was in its understanding of human sexuality, and the debate that some people forget that discussion began about 42 years before the conclusion of it. And the year I was moderator, there was a six hour discussion of it, and much lighter, not lighter, less animated, discussion than there was, say, in the late teens. But it was certainly, I suppose, pivotal in 2000 to 2003 they were struggling with an issue that was a long way from resolution. So you could argue that the ordination of women debate which ended with some animosity, and the debate on human sexuality, which ended, as we know it's still ending, I guess, with some animosity. Not sure entirely why, but it is. It's rather interesting that in the span of ministry, there were two and the in between period probably a time when the church was moving the not the chairs on the Titanic, but they were spending a lot of time on and how do we govern ourselves? How do we improve this? How do we do I think some of that has stopped their kind of navel gazing. And the focus is just get the job done. Do it? Use the tools you have. I'm finding that in our own presbytery right now, we have to, we have to talk about, is this ministry still valid? Is it still sustainable? How's it going to go? So it's, it's interesting that your ministry is somewhat bracketed by interest to major debates. But I guess if you look back in church history, that's probably not that unusual.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Par for the course.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Interesting people ahead of me would have been involved in the in the 1925 situation, right? My mother was involved in that had very strong feelings on it throughout her life. So you can point to times when, for anybody in ministry, there would have been times of 1600s or in the 1300s or whatever.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
You've referenced, the sort of future of the church, or the reality or the current reality of the church in a couple of different ways, certainly in your own presbytery. And what I've seen having the opportunity to go across the country, or connect with ministry leaders across the country is one of our catch phrases, is you are not alone as you serve in ministry. And reminding folks that when I'm talking to them, when they're saying, you know, we have a presbytery, that half the churches are vacant. There's only a few of us to do the work of the presbytery. There's only a few full-time ministers, either fortunately or unfortunately, I can say to them, well, actually, your situation isn't much different from other presbyteries across the country. So that's certainly a common reality when you think about the future of the church today, as it moves, as you're ending your season of congregational ministry. What are some of the things you think about around the future of the church? What does it look like from your vantage point at this point?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Well, there are some ways, and certainly not the full churches, and they even going evenness of what was going on in the church in the 50s, which I can still remember a bit to some degree, the 60s. One of the things that maybe it can be a little encouraging for the church right now is we're not alone. The Roman Catholic Church, the United Church of Canada, are two denominations that are aware of in our region that are facing pretty enormous, what you might call even existential questions, together with our own. So there's safety in numbers. Yeah, there's safety in realizing that the pain that you have in your forearm is a pain that some others have in their upper arm or something. So there's, there's some feeling of encouragement or support, which, if you look at the early church, you know, there's no bed of roses. So why should we think that the church should now be like the 50s? That's it's a nice, warm feeling, and I can still remember the evenness of the flow of our tradition, and I think of others. I was raised in the United Church of Canada, the evenness of what was going on in the late 40s, early 50s, post World War II, even into the 60s.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Any advice, if a young Sandy was graduating this coming May, what would you what would you say to a young Sandy about to embark in a 56 year journey of ministry? Are they going to get 56 years or, yeah? What's your thought?
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I guess I would encourage the person to learn the meaning of hang in there or or not just endurance, but of a stick with ness of perseverance, of don't judge things by the ebb and flow, to try and take a longer view of what's taking place in the church. And keeping in mind that the church has struggled and had its issues of division and so on since well, read the book of Acts, or elsewhere. So I think we have to become a little more. We have to, I would encourage current Sandy to have the image of riding the waves, a bit of not being enveloped by a particular wave or approach or concern, but trying to find ways that help you to be sustained, or To be sustaining in a time of bumpiness. And in giving that advice, I'd be living it right now, because in our presbytery, we're starting on some self-study that I know will be it won't be that simple or that easy, because It'll put some [Sandy MacDonald]aller congregations under the microscope. And we don't really have, we have one congregation that could be regarded as maybe two out of the 14 we have would be regarded as bigger, or maybe even three. But it's, you know, it's, it's not again like the 50s, or it's not again like the even the 80s, when St Andrews Dartmouth was a very strong congregation. So yeah, finding creative, nourishing and sustaining ways by which to ride the waves and not to be enveloped by them.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Any sort of, any sort of insight or pearls onto how one can find those sustaining ways. What kept the current you as Sandy, able to ride those ways for so long, some
[SANDY MACDONALD]
Introspection, some self-study, some careful listening, watching, looking, seeing what's being endeavored or tried in other traditions or in other congregations or in other presbyteries. Means training the ear really, well so that you can hear a little bit above the din, or here through the din, that would be the kind of thing. All life isn't running to a fire, so that everything can't be like it was, say, in the 50s, or whenever, when it was blossoming with churches. But churches can blossom even as they did during World War II, some of the amazing stories that come out of perseverance and out of consistent service and obedience. So I think a lot of it depends on listening and discerning, and trying to see a little bit beyond the din. That's what I would say.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
as we as we wrap up, what's next for Sandy? What do you what are you hoping to do after all these years of service in their in congregational ministry?
Well, this answer will probably seem a little like denial of reality. But in some respects, since I retired six months ago, certainly a change of pace, which I welcome, and change of, certainly, of consistent focus. But I'm still heavily involved in our presbytery life, the camp life, and to some degree, I guess, Synod life. I don't feel uncomfortable now, but lying in bed in the morning reading the paper, an old fashioned thing like reading the paper, but some there's that liberty that comes with retirement, but I'm still doing a lot of pulpit supply. I'm an interim moderator, I'm chairman of the camp committee, and I'm clerk of the presbytery. So those are, those are immediate things that probably aren't going to change, and a lot will depend on maintenance of health. I'm 80 years old, so it's almost 81 so it's not always going to be able to maintain that kind of interest in pursuit.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Well, it's a you're a gift to, I would say, a gift to the presbytery and to the Synod, and to the church, in the sense that what I'm discovering, or seeing a lot more, is some ministers who are retiring these days are choosing not to be involved at all, for a variety of reasons, but there's a sense that what I'm discovering in some presbyteries is one of the crises they're having just around human resources is not having a collection of retired ministers with that same level of commitment and willingness to serve.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I fear you're right. About that. It's even one last night said to me, you make me feel guilty about mine. Not trying to make anybody feel guilty. But this person has some gifts, even on a [Sandy MacDonald]all scale. I think there are things that he might do, might be willing to do. Well, we'll see whether changing domiciles and so on. So when all of that settles down, he might be doing things, but that's just my looking through my lens.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Was there anything that you were hoping I asked that would ask, but I did not ask, or anything final you'd like to share,
[SANDY MACDONALD]
I don't think, and I know the same token. I might have been some things that I dreaded you would ask, and you didn't, but I didn't give a lot of thought to that either. I think it's interesting to probe and explore and to hear a little bit about your journey, because your journey is 25 or 30 years behind mine. I don't think anything else, I think just persevering, and I know I live a little bit in the past. I'm strong on tradition, and some traditions and so on, but I still think it's important to have a sharp eye to the past as we look ahead to the future. What's sustaining and what was problematic, and that should help us make some, I think, helpful judgments. Just living together you've come at the time of our Synod, beating used to be very heavy with accepting the docket, which we didn't do last night. Now the focus is on a guest speaker, which this year is the principal of Knox College. And some other time, I think it's tomorrow afternoon, for two or three hours, the focus is on seminars. And two of one of the seminars, we think, is being conducted by two persons from 50 Winford Drive, and one seminar is being done by one by one of our Synod staff persons. I forget who the third one is. Sorry, I think it. Just keep on building fellowship and regarding small is not entirely problematic. Small can be beautiful.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
I love that. Small can be beautiful. Yeah, I'm seeing that. I'm saying that a lot more to folks that the future of the church is small. How we sustain small is a question, but, but we are small.
[SANDY MACDONALD]
One of those issues would be on some of our buildings are so enormous. How do we maintain their beauty or their what they contributed to development of spirituality and faith and hope? But how do we put them to work?
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
That's certainly a constant theme I'm hearing across the country as well. How do we how do we be good stewards of what we do? Have buildings, land, things like that, but make them work for the reality that we're currently living in? For sure, for sure. Sandy, it's been a pleasure to speak to you. I am grateful for your long obedience in the same direction, and I think the Presbyterian Church in Canada is grateful too. So thank you for your service. I wish you well and good health,
[SANDY MACDONALD]
And likewise, my beloved college continues its work.
[JOHN BORTHWICK]
Thank you, awesome.
Thanks for joining us today on the Ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way. If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues. Tell Someone, please don't keep us a secret. And of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you. And honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either. And don't forget to follow us on social media at Ministry Forum, on all of our channels, you can visit our website at ministryforum.ca, for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community until next time, may God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do. May you be fearless, not reckless. May you be well in body, mind and spirit, and may you be that peace.