Interview with Sara Traficante, Ministry Forum Intern and MPS Student
Summary:
In this episode, Ministry Forum Intern Sara Traficante shares her journey from a career in music to studying psychospiritual therapy at Knox College. Drawn to ministry through experiences in her church and a contemplative search for deeper meaning, Sara describes how the Master of Psychospiritual Studies (MPS) program allows her to integrate faith with therapeutic practices. She discusses her leadership roles in her church’s Indigenous justice and LGBTQ+ inclusion projects, which highlighted her passion for collaborative, inclusive ministry. At Knox, Sara has found a supportive and diverse learning environment that has helped her develop confidence, spiritual maturity, and a strong sense of call. Her story offers insights for those in ministry who seek to blend spiritual care with community and therapeutic support.
Quotables:
I feel that all of the skills that I honed in my music training are also coming through in this way, because in music, you have to listen, or you should listen to others. And for example, in an orchestra, I have many years of experience playing in orchestras and you have a leader at the front. However, I would maybe this is controversial, but I would say that the real work is happening between the musicians on stage in rehearsal, I'm listening to the oboe player beside me, and we're, we're almost playing in a duo, the two of us, and then, you know, listening around to everything that's happening around so that we can fit together and play some beautiful music together. So I feel that my background in music only enriches my ministry experiences, because I value that collaboration so much. - Sara Traficante
…And also, you know, draw the best out of us, and really challenge us. And we're able to bring this broader lens together, and sometimes it's gets messy. I won't lie, you know, there are some big conversations that happen, but that's part of our learning. And going forward, we can't exist in these bubbles. We will be all together in the messiness of our lives, out in the world and in the church and in our practices. And I think it's great that we get to work through a lot of that right here in the program. - Sara Traficante
About Sara Traficante | B.Mus. M.Mus., Master of Psychospiritual Studies Student
Sara Traficante is thrilled to be a student in the MPS program at Knox College, nurturing her interests in spiritually integrated psychotherapy, spiritual care, and theology. Sara has 20-years- experience in the classical music industry, performing and teaching across Canada as a flutist. Her devotion to Christian service has been fostered for the past 12 years at Central Presbyterian Church (Hamilton), in children and youth programs, adult discipleship, music and choir, and with a special focus in social justice ministry.
Additional Resources:
Center for Action and Contemplation
Master of Psychospiritual Studies (MPS), formerly known as the Master of Pastoral Studies
Toronto School of Theology (TST)
Ministry Forum Podcast Interview with Intern Rachel Kennedy
PCC Discipleship Ministries Fund
Truth and Reconciliation: 94 Calls to Action
Woodland Cultural Centre (Brantford, Ontario)
PCC Articles and Resources for LGBTI Inclusion
Thinking in Jazz (online resource coming soon)
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the Ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
[John Borthwick]
We are back with the Ministry Forum Podcast, and we are recording on riverside.fm I probably should do an unpaid commercial for them, because I'm really enjoying this platform. Today, we're talking with another one of our Ministry Forum interns, Sara Traficante. Sara is one of our Master of Psychospiritual Studies students. For those not familiar with this kind of program at Knox College, it's an MPS is what it's called, and it's, it's kind of taken off in the province of Ontario, for sure, the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario, or CRPO, was established around 2007 and with that establishment, it seemed like this kind of program has sort of popped up around so many different theological seminaries, not just in Ontario, but actually across Canada, and Knox College is one of them. Now the program at Knox is offered in collaboration with Emmanuel College, and it combines theological studies and psychotherapy, sometimes described as a spiritually integrated psychotherapeutic approach. Now maybe Sara will speak a little bit more on this as we have our current conversation. No pressure, Sara, but we'll see. But as I mentioned, programs like this are growing in seminaries like Knox and Emmanuel, while traditional programs like the Master of Divinity are just on a bit of the decline these days all across North America. That perhaps is a conversation for another day. But what I would say is that as we seek at Ministry Forum to expand the definition of what ministry is in today's world, those who are studying the MPS program will more than likely serve in ministry in some way, whether that's in a congregational setting, maybe a hospital, long term care, or even just in private practice, Knox College continues to come alongside people as they seek to discern their call to ministry, and the MPS program is just one, perhaps to some a new way, but it's certainly a way all the same that we answer that call. And so at Ministry Forum, we celebrate all the varieties of ministry leadership and certainly folks that are pursuing that through our MPS program, just like Sara. Sara, welcome.
[Sara Traficante]
Thank you. Thanks for having me. John.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, we're I'm excited about our conversation today, and so grateful that you've come to join our team as a one of our ministry interns, just like Rachel. I'd like to start where I often do, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you'd like to share as your introduction? I could say things, but it's best if it comes from you.
[Sara Traficante]
Sure, so I am living in Hamilton, Ontario. I grew up in this area. I grew up in Dundas, and then, well, I live here with my husband and my daughter and my miniature Schnauzer, who may make an appearance on this podcast. Yeah, so I grew up in Dundas, and I, as a young person, had a very strong passion for music, and I studied flute, classical flute, to a very high level, and put in a lot of time and energy, and I have worked in music for the last 20 years. So I'm in my mid 40s. I'm one of these folks who fits the median age of the MPS program perfectly, which I think is entry at age 43 and yeah, I have loved my life in music, and I still do enjoy performing and teaching. And yeah, that's basically where I come from.
[John Borthwick]
I love Dundas. I'm a Mac grad. I took my BA in history there, grew up in Burlington, Hamilton adjacent kind of experiences most of my life. My parents both lived in Hamilton when they were growing up. Loved. Tally Ho, where you can get the roast beef sandwiches? A unique experience.
[Sara Traficante]
Yeah, well I went to St Mary's high school, so I am very familiar with that strip of Main Street West and all of its culinary delights. But yeah, McMaster also, I taught there before I came to the MPS program, I taught at McMaster in the music program in the School of the Arts for about six or seven years as a part time instructor in music. And I also ran the flute ensemble, so I'd be in the room with, you know, 16 flutes of all varieties, piccolos, base flutes, alto flutes. So yeah, I teaching has been a very big part of my career. I've taught kids from age three all the way through adulthood, and I think that is part of what drew me into ministry, honestly, because of that one-on-one time with students, you can really develop a relationship, get to know people. And it was also a big draw for me into the MPS program and learning more about how I could support folks with their mental health, which has, you know, it definitely popped up when I was working with students in the university setting. So, yeah, it all contributed to my draw to Knox College.
[John Borthwick]
That's fascinating, yeah? And the flutists, is that the right word is that we call you all?
[Sara Traficante]
yeah, that's the British nomenclature. I'd say most American, Canadian, North American flutists say flutist,
[John Borthwick]
Okay, flutist, okay. We've learned something new on the Ministry Forum Podcast, yeah, excellent. And I knew a guy in the congregation I served in in Guelph. He one day in worship, he played the bagpipes and was very musical. One day in worship, he played the recorder.
[Sara Traficante]
Oh, love it.
[John Borthwick]
And, and I and, well, not every human being who went through a certain period of time in school loves the recorder because it's, was it grade four or something, grade three, everybody gets a recorder and you have to play something, but he played the recorder. And I was like, this is amazing. And I commented on it and said, You're playing a recorder. And he said, Yes, yes, I am. And his he said his mission in life was to redeem when certain wind instruments, like the bagpipes and the recorder, and he did a great job of redeeming them. That was a beautiful thing.
[Sara Traficante]
I'm sure that he and I could be friends.
[John Borthwick]
There you go. I bet you could. So, so you talk about being drawn into Knox College. You've talked a little bit about what you were doing before that time. Things were going in a certain direction for you, and had been for quite some time, like there's a lot of different things that have been added into your life, probably related to your training and your experiences. How did, how would you describe this draw what pulled you into the vortex of Knox College? How did this happen?
[Sara Traficante]
Okay, so in a few ways. I would say, the last few years before the pandemic, times I had started working in part-time ministry in my church community. And so I basically came in as a support person because it was such a big and flourishing church, and there just needed to be some extra hands on deck, so I was a part-time coordinator of adult discipleship, that was my title. And so what I did was help to program using some of my music skills, because also as a musician, I have done a lot of organizing, organizing of concerts, events, students, and so I put those organizing skills into my work in the church and pulling people together for Bible studies. And also I was the person who kind of kept track of the new folks who would come in the door and help to welcome them into the community and eventually into membership classes. So I got to hone some of my people skills in that area, working as a helper, a ministry helper, really, in that capacity.
And during that time, I also became aware of this masters of pastoral studies, as it was called at the time, and I had been wondering, do I want to do this same life in music for the second half of my career? I don't know. I'm not sure. So I started thinking about that, and was investigating different opportunities. I looked at Masters of Social Work, and then the masters of pastoral studies popped up, and I was very curious about it, and also very intimidated. So I took time to think about that, and then kind of went on the back burner.
And then we had the pandemic, and that blew up everything, right? That blew up my life in music. That spring, I was supposed to go on tour through all of Eastern Canada with my Duo. I have a flute and guitar duo. You can find me on YouTube. Azuline Duo is what we're called, and my partner is Emma Rush, who is a fabulous Canadian classical guitarist. And, yeah, we had this tour planned of eastern Canada, and that just blew up and also, my daughter was in grade four at the time I think, and she could not cope with online learning because of her own learning needs. And I basically stopped everything and became a homeschool mom and did that for the next few years. So during that time, it was a big period of seeking, and I experienced that seeking through reinventing myself as a stay at home mom, learning how to cook incredible food. I'm a great cook now, but I also poured myself into as much learning as I could at that time. I have become a very big fan of the Center for Action and Contemplation. Someday, I hope to go and do one of their retreats, and I just immersed myself in many different Christian writers who pushed me and also affirmed me. So that was a very helpful period of time.
And then from there, I just, you know, started seeking a little bit more and looking into Knox College. And by that point, I have to sing the praises of Rev. Dr. Nicholas Athanasoados, who came as an interim minister at my home church, and he just quietly supported me through my process of discernment into the MPS program. And supported me. Wrote a letter for me and having him in the background, plus also the Clerk of Session at my church, who is also a big supporter of me, just I felt cradled into the MPS by my church community, which was a huge help for me to feel like this is something I can do, because it did feel like a really radical change in that I hadn't been in school for 19 years. I hadn't been to an academically rigorous program like U of T, like I studied at two very highly regarded music programs Eastman School of Music in Rochester, New York, and McGill music faculty, but I knew that both of those programs did not have the demands of writing that I was going to have at TST. So, I was terrified. Let's just put it that way. And I also I didn't know how my theology would fit in. So it was a lot of seeking, and then I've came to Knox and fell in love with the program, with the learning, the faculty has been incredibly supportive, and I have felt in my projects that I can explore what feels authentic for me, which is a huge gift, because I didn't know, I didn't know if that would be possible. And here I am, and the things I'm passionate about, I'm able to explore in the MPS program, and that is an enormous gift. So that's my long story as to how I came to Knox and what I'm up to these days.
[John Borthwick]
That's amazing. I love all the little threads that are within that story of people quietly coming alongside the cradling, reaching out to resources like the Center for Action and Contemplation, reading and just sort of seeing where all that fits, and then, you know, being drawn into and then falling in love with a with a place like Knox College. I think that's a, it's a beautiful story. It's a it's a great story.
Part of our conversation with Rachel as a Ministry Forum Intern was also a bit about how she experienced that sort of call and people. She also sort of mentioned this idea of people not necessarily pushing, but affirming and supporting sort of notions of a sense of call within someone. I think that's an interesting folks for interesting thing for folks who are listening to think about, how do you do that, and as a ministry leader, as a minister, or people in leadership in churches, when you see sort of gifts, or when people are raising up questions and wonderings about this is sort of what I'm thinking about or checking out. How do you do that in a way that can be really affirming and positive, so that when they're telling their story, they can say things like, I felt cradled, I felt supported, I felt nurtured in a quiet kind of way. So yeah, good news that the context you were in was a part of that and helped. We often talk about call being an inner call and an outer call. And so clearly that you were having those inner experiences which only a pandemic can bring to someone. And it was nice that the outer call started to be shaped as well as a part of that journey.
[Sara Traficante]
Oh, yeah, absolutely I I'd like to just speak a little bit more about my church community, because there were two big projects that I dove into that really helped to nurture my sense of call also. So one was around Indigenous justice and learning so, and this actually was supported by the PCC Discipleship Ministries fund. So I will say, reach out to the PCC, because there are ways that the denomination can support projects as well. So at our church, we were lacking a land acknowledgement, and I, with a group of church members, just decided to get together and say, let's do this, but we're going to do it really well. Okay, we're not just going to copy and paste. So we decided to put this learning group together. It's now called the Social Justice Group, and we decided to immerse ourselves into reading. We read the calls to action from the TRC, and then we did the virtual tour through the oh, I've lost the name now, but it's through the Woodland Cultural Center. It's the Mohawk. That's right, yeah, it's the Mohawk Residential School. And so we did that together as a group, and we just met and talked and processed through all of our learning. And then from there, we reached out to Sheila Miracle, who is Mohawk woman living in Hamilton, who was working as a teacher for the public school board. And she met with us and really helped us to work through what we wanted our land acknowledgement to be. And so this kind of collaborative ministry that is not token at all. We were working together. We're doing some really hard work. There was learning that, you know, we really ripped the band aid off for a lot of people in the congregation who had no understanding of what happened with the residential schools, and we did this work together, and that was for me, because I was at the leadership of that end. I thought, Okay, this is actually a really interesting way to do ministry, where we learn together and we listen to what the actual calls are from the Indigenous people to the church and try to make some steps forward. And so that has persisted in our community, and each year we've been trying to build on that learning. So that's been a big, wonderful experience in ministry, very challenging. And my other big experience that I had with this same group, we decided, Okay, we're ready. We're going to write a statement of welcome and inclusion for the church after the remits on LGBT marriage and ordination. And so we said, Okay, we've done this model with our Indigenous justice group. Let's do the same model with a statement of welcome and inclusion, and so we just did. We engaged in a lot of learning. We brought in Kara Earhart from the PCC, and we worked together to grapple with some challenging conversations that were also facilitated by Rev Nick Athanasiadis, he came and chatted with us, and we worked together. This was a collaborative process, and we said, if we're going to put this out there, we have to really mean it, and we have to be able to live it. And so that was a very important expression of my faith at work. And I felt that going through this process in the church community was a wonderful way for me to just live out my faith. And I'm also extremely thankful to my church for allowing me and being so permission, giving around, pursuing passions that are where important to me and yeah, it's all part of my call process. Working through all of that in a safe environment is huge.
[John Borthwick]
That's great. Sarah. It's yeah, it's fascinating. You highlighted collaborative. You highlighted your passions. You know, I see so often in churches and in ministry leadership, sometimes what happens for folks is they have their own personal agenda or their own passion projects, and they sort of run with them in a church community. But, it doesn't always get sort of pulled into other people being a part of that. I remember being a part of a conversation in a church where I was naming some things that were going on in a church, like things that seemed really neat and really interesting, and then the leadership there had to sort of affirm and say, sort of almost in a confessing kind of way, of like, yeah, those things are really sort of the action of like one or two people, and it's like, oh, okay, so you don't really feel ownership of it, or it's not really your thing. And, and they were kind of saying, not really, it's something that, you know, because we have these two people who are really keen on these projects, those things sort of happen, but it isn't sort of a congregation wide or a community wide sort of embracing of that. So I love the ways in which you've been able to, as you said, have a sense of a permissive space to share your passion and enthusiasm, but also channeling that within a community of learning and maybe even a community of practice, to then see how that can be expanded into the wider space and bringing other voices to the table. I think that's a beautiful image of, what I believe our ministry is supposed to be. It's supposed to be all persons as a part of something working together the work of the people, as opposed to just individuals running off and doing their own thing. So I think it's a beautiful expression of ministry today, and a beautiful way that you're connecting that to the how you're continuing to be called in the ministries that you're connected to. One of the quotes I used with Rachel was one of my favorite quotes around vocation is Frederick Bucha. He speaks of the true vocation is where your greatest passion and the world's greatest need meet. When those two things happen, that's vocation, and so I think you're an embodiment of that, at least in the stories you're sharing with us today.
[Sara Traficante]
I'll need some reading recommendations from you around that, because I feel that all of the skills that I honed in my music training are also coming through in this way, because in music, you have to listen, or you should listen to others. And for example, in an orchestra, I have many years of experience playing in orchestras and you have a leader at the front. However, I would maybe this is controversial, but I would say that the real work is happening between the musicians on stage in rehearsal, I'm listening to the oboe player beside me, and we're, we're almost playing in a duo, the two of us, and then, you know, listening around to everything that's happening around so that we can fit together and play some beautiful music together. So I feel that my background in music only enriches my ministry experiences, because I value that collaboration so much.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, at Ministry Forum, we hosted the McDonald lecture this year, and it was the Reverend, Dr. Brian Frasier, who has for a long, long time been passionate about jazz, and Thinking in Jazz and Around Church Leadership was the theme. And so he had a jazz trio and himself sort of talking through. Listening to a jazz piece, or listening just a trio playing jazz, and then percolating questions around, how could you see that? See this, what you've just experienced as a way of being a leader in a church or in a community, and you've expressed it exactly, exactly the same way, and probably controversial for those conductors who would say your purpose is to look at me and know exactly what I'm telling you, what to do, but yeah, go rogue, I say, Oh yeah, I'm very much a favour.
[Sara Traficante]
I’m quite good at that. So, no, it's good. That's really great. I love that it's being shared, but that knowledge is being shared.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah? And so for as you're sort of framing this call within yourself from the experiences you're having that eventually led you to Knox College, and then you said you fell in love with it. How? How is that call continued to be either reinforced or challenged or shaped or changed, even by your experience at the college itself. How have you? Have you experienced that?
[Sara Traficante]
Okay, so when I started, I dipped my toe in because I was really lacking in confidence in my ability to pull this off being a mom, and at the time, I was still working quite a bit at the church. So I started by just I thought, Oh, I'll take one Bible basics and I'll take one therapy class just to get an idea of what this is all about. And what I found was I, I found in the coursework that I could be authentically myself. So that was hugely fantastic. In my Bible courses, I felt that I could, so I took the Old Testament and New Testament, just basic courses in my first year, and that gave me a new perspective.
So I will say I come from a Roman Catholic background. That's where all of my formation was as a young person, and we're not as tied to the Bible, really tied to tradition, but we're not as tied to the Bible. And so when I married a guy from the United Church, that really drew me into a sort of a new theological framework. And I had been, you know, working on my learning basically for the last, oh, my goodness, we've been married for almost 15 years now. So it's been a process of, yeah, my own growth into my own understanding of my Christian expression, my expression of my faith. So these, getting these solid foundations in biblical training was very helpful for me to in building my confidence. Like, oh, I actually know this stuff. You know, I was affirmed in many ways and then also really challenged, especially in the New Testament course. If anyone has ever taken a basic New Testament course, but in my therapeutic classes.
I took two courses with Glenn McCullough, and I really credit him for allowing his students to be themselves. So he has this line that he uses. He says, “you've got to get serious about your spiritual practice. And he uses that over and over again in class and in our courses, sometimes we're with multi faith experiences. So some of the courses, we're working with Buddhist students and Muslim students and Christian students of all flavours, and Glenn really pushed us to get real about what we believe and find you know our maturity in our own faith. So as you work through that, we write papers. We write a lot of reflection papers. I had to write a spiritual eye. What did he call it was a spiritual development like, where are you at in your spiritual development paper that is part of our application for our practicums, and I also had to write a Spiritual Autobiography of my own development as a person. And both of those pieces go into our application for our CPE units. So there's a lot of reflecting time that goes into our studies. And through that, I found that I have been able to be more confident, more comfortable, more literate, more articulate in my own faith. And nothing seemed too off or too quirky.
I also took a course with Dr. Sarah Travis the theology and practice of ministry, and that was new for MPS students to be included in that course. And so we had the opportunity to really work through what does ministry mean in a psychospiritual setting, and what images resonate with you that you can carry through in your ministry going forward. And so that was very helpful for me to be able to articulate where I'm headed forward, and I'm also being extremely brave this year and taking Sarah's Biblical preaching course, so I'm feeling pushed, but in a good way. Let's say encouraged. I'll say that I feel encouraged. And through all of that coursework. It's just been amazing. You know, Angela Schmidt is also my advisor, and any idea I bring forward to her, she sort of nurtures through fruition. And yeah, it's been really exciting. I would also say the students that I've met, they're coming from a huge, varied background, like every denomination you can think of, these folks are appearing in the classroom at Knox College, and so we bring a variety of backgrounds. It's also spiritually, theologically, racially diverse in the classrooms, and we're just supporting each other through the process and really learning from each other. So I've met many inspiring students who have lives in ministry, some come from the arts, some from business, psychology history backgrounds, but they all are feeling this draw into doing spiritually integrated approaches to therapy and spiritual care, and that brings us together in this common community.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think for the Ministry Forum audience I find when I encounter folks who they know Knox College for being a place for formation, for ministers of Word and Sacrament, and they get a little confused, and probably, in some ways, have some probably misguided ideas as to what Master of Psychospiritual Studies might actually be. So I think it's really helpful how you're describing the engagement and the interaction. Because lots of times when folks come to the college to study safe and MDiv, they're surrounded by folks who have come from a church background, very likely Presbyterian Church, but not always, but certainly a Christian background, and their intersection point is maybe they're going to learn things or be challenged in ways around what they thought they knew about the Bible or their faith or theology, and that's part of their formation about, you know, either they're just a sponge and they're learning as they go, or they've come with a lot of fixed ideas, And now some of those ideas might be becoming transformed or molded or shaped in a different way, but in the context of an MPS program as you're describing it, you're encountering folks from all walks of life and different faith traditions to have that kind of level of engagement within your classroom And within your interpersonal relationships with the student body, sounds to me to be a fascinating way of expanding your own understanding of faith and spirituality, being having an opportunity to encounter and be curious about other traditions, and then also having that Be a part of your own personal formation as to who you're going to be as someone who is a person of faith.
[Sara Traficante]
One of the things that I've loved and noticed at Knox is that if you look at the MPS curriculum and the MDiv curriculum, there's a lot of overlap. So I think seven or eight courses in the first year are the same. So it's, in a way, you're getting a mini MDiv as an MPS student. We have to take 16 courses, plus two practicums, or you can do 18 courses plus two practicum. So basically your half of your degree is a mini MDiv, and what you're getting out of that is a foundation from which to launch your psychospiritual practice.
I'm not a complete expert at this, and not an expert at all, but my understanding is, in the CRPO, you work from your area of practice. So I will be not working as a music therapist, that's a whole other area of practice, but I'm going to be working from a spiritually integrated framework. And so this foundational work that we do together is so important. And what I'm noticing is that, because we have MDiv students and MPS students in the class together, it makes for a more rich conversation for both cohorts, right? You have the MDiv students who probably, in the past, would have been just with other Presbyterians. And now this is a bit of a bigger conversation that we're having. People are bringing denominational backgrounds. They're very diverse. We have Roman Catholics, we have Seventh Day Adventists, we have United Church folks, Anglicans, everybody's together in these classes. And so that really helps to enrich and inform our conversations probably in a different way than would have happened before the MPS students were so highly involved in these theological basics. And I think it's really exciting. It's also extremely inspiring, because I'm learning so you know, the professors at Knox College are excellent, and they're all highly published, and they bring an enormous background to the coursework. And also, you know, draw the best out of us, and really challenge us. And we're able to bring this broader lens together, and sometimes it's gets messy. I won't lie, you know, there are some big conversations that happen, but that's part of our learning. And going forward, we can't exist in these bubbles. We will be all together in the messiness of our lives, out in the world and in the church and in our practices. And I think it's great that we get to work through a lot of that right here in the program.
[John Borthwick]
I love that. Yeah, I think, I think we've, we've talked about many of the things that we were hoping to talk about in a variety of different ways. But is there anything you were hoping I would ask, but haven't asked at all or any last words you'd like to share to our Ministry Forum audience today.
[Sara Traficante]
I just, I would say, part of my seeking journey that I've been doing through the contemplative work with the Center for Action and Contemplation is that there is in that work a real recognition of spiritual yearning. And I think if we can be brave to listen to that, it can get us quite far into finding new pathways to talk about that. You know, maybe we'll be interested in peeking into a new book or finding a new community that where we could explore that. And I think those two are also the folks who walk in the church door today. So there why on earth would you go to church on a Sunday morning where you could go for brunch? And I think a lot of those folks, they are experiencing some yearning. Maybe they're looking for pastoral support. Maybe they're looking for some word of encouragement. That's a little piece of yearning, and I think it's important for us to acknowledge that and honour that, just like what you were talking about before, instead of handing them out a box full of envelopes, like, Why? Why are you there? And there's something that Jim Finley, who's from the Center of Action and Contemplation, I keep talking about this because it's been so inspiring to me, but he has this line that something like, Why do I feel trapped on this circumference of my inner life? He's very poetic, and I think it's good to be able to articulate that. And you know, folks will appear, I think in my psychospiritual, spiritually integrated psychotherapy practice of the future, you know, who are having those existential wanderings, yearnings, and I think as future practitioners, and ministers, just being curious about that, and walking with folks with that, I think, is going to be very important, moving in the future for me. So I'm that's where I'm headed. I think today, perhaps I will be Rachel's assistant, or someone you know there, it might come together where I'm, I'm a big collaboration person, so I'm, I'm looking for folks who want to work together. I love working on a team, but yeah, thanks, John, thanks for bringing me into the Ministry Forum fold.
[John Borthwick]
We're delighted to have you on our team, and for you to have a chance to offer where your thinking is at as of today. And we're so grateful for you answering that, that that yearning, perhaps, or that being drawn into something and falling for Knox College in the way that you did. And yeah, we're excited to see where the next steps take you. So thank you for being on our Ministry Forum Podcast today, Sara, we look forward to what, what's next. And yeah, just thank you so much.
[Sara Traficante]
Thank you
[Outro]
Thanks for joining us today on the Ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way. If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues. Tell Someone, please don't keep us a secret, and of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you. And honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either. And don't forget to follow us on social media at Ministry Forum, on all of our channels, you can visit our website at Ministry Forum.ca, for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community until next time. May God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do. May you be fearless, not reckless, and may you be well in body, mind and spirit, and may you be that peace.