When God Became White
Summary
John Borthwick chats with Knox College alumna Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim. Grace shares her journey from studying theology to becoming an accomplished author, speaker, and advocate. She reflects on what it’s like to navigate academia as an Asian-American woman and why she’s passionate about amplifying marginalized voices. Grace discusses topics in her books Invisible and When God Became White, explaining how they tackle issues of race, gender, and systemic injustices within the church and society. With honesty and humour, Grace also talks about balancing writing and family life, and how she never imagined she’d end up authoring over 20 books! This episode is a look at faith, identity, and the power of storytelling in creating change.
Quotables
“My latest book is called Invisible, and you know, I write a little bit about my experience at Knox. I write a lot about my life, because we come to know God through our own life story and our own experiences” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
“only a non-Asian will ask me, because any Asian American, Asian Canadian, knows that are kind of our communal experience here as immigrants and as just people have been here for many generations, is that we are made invisible by society, because our experiences of racism are never taken seriously. Or I've had so many people tell me, “Oh that wasn't racism at all because you're Asian”. You know? It's only black and white. Only black people can experience racism. So our issues are made invisible. Our history is made invisible… people often ask me, why is a book called Invisible? But no Asian immigrant, North American will ever ask me that question, because it is such a common experience.” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
“…when we dig into it, and you know when you and I studied at Knox, and you know we had to read John Calvin and Luther and Augustine and Aquinas, all these kind of white male European theologians. Oh and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and all these other major theologians, they were all writing from their own experiences. Bonhoeffer, his letters from prison were because of his stance during the war. And when you think about Luther going against the Roman Catholic Church, that was from his experience. And Calvin, too, and Knox. Every one of them were writing in their own particular context.” - Rev. Dr. Ji-Sun Kim
“I was trying to figure out why this racism is so prevalent in theology and in our churches, and it's because we have a white God, and the “when” is important, because God was not always white.” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
“Christ never said to get engaged in war. He said, Blessed are the peacemakers. He lived under occupation. Under the Roman occupation, he never wanted to engage in war with the Roman Empire. No, his message was always loving our neighbor and being peacemakers, sharing hope and peace with the world. And we have distorted the message of Christ in so many ways, unbelievable ways, in the name of whiteness, and the name of a white male God.” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
“So to read these theologians through the eyes of the colonized, of the oppressed, it's really hard for me to read some of them again, because they are portraying a white Emperor God and a white Emperor Jesus.” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
“if God is a white male god, then the white male is God. We have to really be careful of our languages and how we understand who God is, because it really affects our own behavior, our own ethics and how we understand and view the world.” - Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
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About Rev. Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim
Grace Ji-Sun Kim received her M.Div. from Knox College (University of Toronto) and her Ph.D. from the University of Toronto. She is Professor of Theology at Earlham School of Religion.
Kim is the author or editor of 24 books, When God Became White, Surviving God, Christianity in North America, Spirit Life, Invisible, Hope in Disarray: Piecing Our Lives Together in Faith; Reimagining Spirit, Keeping Hope Alive (Orbis Books), Intersectional Theology: An Introductory Guide (Fortress Press) cowritten with Dr. Susan Shaw; Healing Our Broken Humanity, co-written with Graham Hill, The Homebrewed Christianity Guide to the Holy Spirit, Mother Daughter Speak, co-written with Elisabeth Sophia Lee; Planetary Solidarity (Fortress Press) co-edited with Hilda Koster; Intercultural Ministry co-edited with Jann Aldredge-Clanton (Judson Press); Making Peace with the Earth (WCC); Embracing the Other (Eerdmans); Here I Am(Judson Press); Christian Doctrines for Global Gender Justice (Palgrave) co-edited with Jenny Daggers; Theological Reflections on “Gangnam Style” (Palgrave Macmillan) co-written with Joseph Cheah; Contemplations from the Heart (Wipf & Stock); Reimagining with Christian Doctrines co-edited with Jenny Daggers (Palgrave Macmillan); Colonialism, Han and the Transformative Power (Palgrave Macmillan); The Holy Spirit, Chi and the Other (Palgrave Macmillan); and The Grace of Sophia (Pilgrim Press).
Englewood Review of Books listed Invisible as one of the 12 ImportantTheology Books of 2021. Englewood also listed Reimagining Spirit as one of the Best Theology Books of 2019 and Intersectional Theology co-written with Susan Shaw as one of the Best Theology Books of 2018! Healing Our Broken Humanity, co-written with Graham Hill was included in their list of Best Books of 2018 Advent Calendar.
Preaching at Gardner-Webb University
She is a co-editor with Joseph Cheah for the Palgrave Macmillan Book Series, “Asian Christianity in the Diaspora”. Kim has also written over 70 book chapters, journal articles and book reviews. Kim is a much sought after lecturer and has given papers/lectures throughout the United States and in Malaysia, Korea, Myanmar, Spain, Qatar, Brazil, Switzerland, Peru, England, South Africa, Paris and Canada.
Kim is the host of Madang podcast which holds conversations on Christianity, religion and culture. Madang podcast is hosted by The Christian Century.
Kim served on the Board of Directors for the American Academy of Religion as an At-Large Director. She served on the American Academy of Religion’s (AAR) “Research Grants Jury Committee” and was co-chair of AAR’s steering committee, “Women of Color Scholarship, Teaching and Activism Group.” She sits on the editorial board for the Journal for Religion and Popular Culture and is a referee for 3 journals: Journal of Race, Ethnicity, and Religion, Journal of Religion and Popular Culture and The Global Studies Journal. She is an Advisory Board Member for the Center for Reconciliation at Duke Divinity School. Kim is a member of the working group on Climate Change for the World Council of Churches. Kim served on the board for the Korean American Clergywomen and is also a member of the Presbyterian Church(USA)’s Social Ethics Network.
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel.
I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca. I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
[John Borthwick]
It's great to have you with us on this week's episode of the Ministry Forum Podcast. These early episodes are kind of an experiment for us, so we'd love to hear your feedback on whether or not this is the kind of content that you'd hope we would bring to you, either occasionally or on a regular basis. And so this week today, we're bringing you a conversation that we hosted way back on November 1, 2023. That's right, we're going way back into the archives and digging out, well, truthfully, our only piece of content from way back then. You see, we knew right from the start that we wanted to create a podcast as an alternative way for people to connect with the wealth of content and resources that we've expected to generate from Ministry Forum, and we know that lots of people learn much better by listening and a little bit of an insight into me. I rarely listen to music. I know I can hear the collective gasp from some of you. You see, if you see me wearing AirPods, I guarantee I'm listening to a podcast or an audiobook. And yes, you'd be right if you said, is that at 1.5 speed John? It certainly is.
So this week, we are going to share the recording of our interview with the Knox College alumni, the Reverend Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim. She so graciously gave her time to be our first ever Ministry Forum podcast guest. And oh my goodness, Grace is a pro at this stuff. Before there was a podcast, Grace was our chapel guest at Knox College in mid-November last year. She preached a sermon. Then she took time to sign some books. She wanted to convene a conversation with some of the Korean students who study at the college, and Ministry Forum was delighted to offer some free copies of Dr Kim's books to the students who attended that day as a bit of a gift, and a memento of the time shared with Dr Kim. It was so fantastic to see Grace after so many years, and to reminisce about our time back at the college, way back in the early 1990s. I loved the reflections that she shared about writing as an academic, and you can note maybe a bit of my naivete when I asked her, so why do academics write books? Is it for the academy or for the world? I so appreciated what she had to say about her book Invisible, and her thoughts on theology as written by old, white, Eurocentric men. You are in for a treat.
Now, for the sake of time, since we talk for about 45 minutes or so, I'll leave her introduction to the recording itself, and in the podcast notes, you'll find them there at our website. Now, just an apology for technology, the audio quality due to bandwidth issues on both ends of our zoom call, it kind of cuts out from time to time. So, try to be patient as you listen, because there's some really great stuff in this conversation.
[John Borthwick]
Welcome Grace. It's so good to see you and good to be with you after a long season of not seeing you. But I've seen you tons on social media. So welcome to the Ministry Forum’s, hosting of Grace Kim. She's the Reverend Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim. She is all sorts of things, a professor, an author, an editor, a podcaster, everything is Grace. And so Grace, it's a delight to be with you. I realize you've published 22 books since probably we last saw each other in person, so that's pretty darn amazing. I haven't published one. I don't know if I've written much either, except for sir. And stuff like that, But I thought we would maybe start just our conversation around catching up. You graduated with your MDiv from Knox College in when?
[Grace Kim]
1995. So John, thank you so much for having me. This is such a pleasure to be on your Ministry Forum Podcast. And congratulations on this new position. I'm so excited that Knox came up with this position. I think it's something that was needed at Knox. I wish it was there when we were both students at Knox. So, congratulations. It's such a joy, and already you've just been hitting the road, running and doing so much. So, thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast, on the Ministry Forum Podcast, and thank you for saying that I'm everything. No one has ever introduced me that way, ever on another podcast, or when I'm preaching or lecturing. So that means a lot to me. So thank you, John. I graduated in 1995 and I don't know when you graduated, was it 1997 or 6?
[John Borthwick]
1998, I graduated with my MDiv.
[Grace Kim]
Oh, okay. So I think our time did overlap, because after I finished, when I graduated in 1995, I did the PhD program at TST. Well, St Michael's University of St Michael's College. I studied so much at Knox library, well, all the different libraries, but I was there a lot at Knox. So that's why our time and we overlapped in different ways.
[John Borthwick]
And so how do you how do you go from doing an MDiv to doing a PhD to then going on the trajectory you've gone on? I've followed you because you are a prolific poster of things. I'm not a I'm not a huge Facebook guy, but I've gotten back into it and Instagram, and I've just, I know I've in a weird way, I haven't stalked you, but I've certainly observed the spaces and places you've occupied. You've hung out with Reverend Jesse Jackson. Over the years, you've done many trips all around the world. You're often at conferences. I really enjoy Home Brewed Christianity and Trip Fuller. You've been a guest on his podcast many times. So how do you go from Knox …
[Grace Kim]
I'm a good planner, but I never planned my life, and I never thought it would be like this. I never thought I would be here in the States. So after 1995, I graduated with my PhD in theology in 2001. I had two children during my PhD program. So it was not easy. It's a miracle that I even finished the program. I took time off in the middle of the program to have these kids, but I still managed to graduate in 2001. So that was about six years, and I moved, and then I had another one after my PhD, so I have three kids. I never thought I’d have three kids. And I didn't really think I would move to the US. I was looking for jobs in Canada. And, you know, that's in 2004, and I remember telling myself, if I retire and I've written three books, I will back. I never thought of myself as a writer, let alone a speaker. Those two were the last things on my mind or on my agenda, or I never, ever thought of myself that way. It just evolved that way. My first book, The Grace of Sophia, came out, I think 2002, so right after I graduated with my PhD program, and I thought, you know what? I'll just write another book, somewhere down the road on wisdom Christology, because the first one is called The Grace of Sophia, and it was on wisdom Christology, and I really liked it. And I'm still very proud of my first book. I never thought it'd be published, but it did, but I didn't write my second book until, I think 2002. I mean 2018 so it was a long time. No, that's not right. But anyway, it was a long time after my first book. I have to Google when it came out. So the first one came out, 2002 but then the second one, because what year are we?
[John Borthwick]
2023
[Grace Kim]
Yes, anyway, it was about 10 years later that my second book came out, and so then after the second book, then multiple books started coming out. After that, I think it took me a long time to write the second book, because I had just moved to a new country. My kids were all tiny and giving me a headache all the time, and I was really sick for a while. I think I was just trying to do too much, raising a family and teaching and nothing was I wasn't able to write. And looking back, this is just something for young women scholars, or mother scholars out there, that there is a time to write, and when your kids are young, if that's not the time to write, because it just led me to a lot of stress. I was really stressed out a lot.
I thought I should write, oh, I think the second book came out 2011 so the first one came out, 2002 and then the second one. So it was a long time since I got the second one out, but then, by then, the kids were in school, I think maybe elementary, but they were all out of the like I had free time during the day. It wasn't me taking them to daycare, back and forth, shuffling them around, and so it became a little easier to write, but I never thought I'd be 22 books. I'm so proud one day, and then, I have to stay a little humble. But anyway, it's exciting that I got to write 22 books and have two more coming out next year, so I'm really excited about that.
And, you know, I'm just thrilled for the life that I'm able to live at this point. It's nothing that I had dreamed about. It's I'm just grateful every day for what I'm able to accomplish, and do, and be invited to speak. I still remember, and I might have written about it in one of my books, because I write so much about my life that in grade three and four and five and six, I think we had to do public speaking in elementary school. And I don't know if they still do that, but it was a required thing. Well, you had to go in front of the class, and the winners got to do it in front of the school, to do like a three to five minute talk on something. And I remember it was the most dreadful day of the year. Well, there were a few dreadful days, but that was one of them. It was one of the top ones. I was mortified, and I was so scared. I said, how can I do this? My English was still poor, and I couldn't memorize I had those cue cards, and by the time it was my turn, you know, I was sweating so much, the cue cards were just like disintegrating in my hands. I couldn't read them. So I was terrified to go from that to, I can't wait for someone to invite me so I could speak. Is something that I never expected, and I never talked about this, but now I'm talking to you about it. So it's been a whirlwind of a life, and I hope I can still continue to do this for many more years. So any churches or seminaries or schools feel free to invite me. It's a joy to speak and share some of my journey and some of my books. Majority of the invitations are based on my books.
[John Borthwick]
For sure, and it seems to me that I'm new to the academic world. So I was in congregational ministry for 25 years, and then back in the college that I graduated from as the Director of Lifelong Learning. And just as I survey the landscape, it seems that there are some professors, some academics, who don't get out as much as you. So I don't know if it's just yourself. Is it a self-motivation as an academic? Is it an encouragement from the place where you teach and do your thing?
[Grace Kim]
That’s a good question. You could always speak if you're invited. So, you know, it's not like, oh, I'm saying I will go to some place, the majority are you have to be invited. So I'm just really thankful that people find my books so interesting that they want to invite me. My latest book is called Invisible, and you know, I write a little bit about my experience at Knox. I write a lot about my life, because we come to know God through our own life story and our own experiences. So I wrote Invisible, so it has a lot of my story. My ordination story is in there. Some of my time at Knox is in there. So I'm hoping that some of the Knox students will get a hold of the book and read it. It's called Invisible, published by Fortress Press.
But when I wrote that book, I was invited to speak at a university, and the professor said, oh, they thought I was a really angry person. Because I guess, you know, it depends on how you read the book. And you know, once the book is out, people read it the way they want. Or some stories stick out more than others. So he invited me, and then he said, Oh, you're such a nice person. And I said, you should be a nice person! So, you know, people, it's like reading a novel. You get certain things out of the novel. So in the book, I just found it interesting that the professor that invited me thought I was a really angry person.
Well, sometimes I get angry when there are injustices in the world, and we know there's plenty at this time world affairs, what is happening in the world right now. So I do get angry. But that book, I didn't really write out of anger. I wrote it took me a long time to write that book because it was such a personal book. But it was really coming from a place of how Asian Americans are viewed as invisible people. And so when I do these book talks at seminaries and churches and universities, many of them ask me, why is it called Invisible? You see, only a non-Asian will ask me, because any Asian American, Asian Canadian, knows that are kind of our communal experience here as immigrants and as just people have been here for many generations, is that we are made invisible by society, because our experiences of racism are never taken seriously. Or I've had so many people tell me, “Oh that wasn't racism at all because you're Asian”. You know? It's only black and white. Only black people can experience racism. So our issues are made invisible. Our history is made invisible.
I grew up in Canada, elementary school, I've never been taught any Asian Canadian history. I've been taught a lot of other history, Native Aboriginal history. And you know what happened? You know, in Quebec and all the wars and etc. But I've never been taught that. And then I raised my three kids here, in the US, Asian American history is never taught. There is Black History, Native American history in some places. What's happened in the Mexican border, etc. So the Latinx history, but Asian American history is never taught. And so even a few years back, you mentioned Reverend Jackson, we held a big rally in New York, because there's such a high percentage of Asian Americans living in New York. So we were pressuring legislation to be passed that Asian American history be taught in elementary school. And nothing has happened since then. So this is a big problem, that our history is ignored, is never taught. It's not part of the mainstream, and we've been here for a couple 100 years here in the US, or even longer, but it's not being taught. So that's why I named it Invisible. So people often ask me, why is a book called Invisible? But no Asian immigrant, North American will ever ask me that question, because it is such a common experience.
It's not just in society. But it also happens in the religious sphere. In our churches. People don't often understand. I think maybe PCC is a little better because, especially in the Toronto area, because of the large number of Korean Canadian PCC churches. But overall, just talking in general spaces, our issues are, Asian Canadian, Asian American theology is never taken really seriously. So, you know, you ask the question of being invited. Anytime someone invites me, either for the book Invisible, or any other book, I am really thrilled.
So I'll be at Western University in London, Ontario. I grew up there, so it's a huge honor to be invited to speak there. It's mostly on the book Healing Our Broken Humanity, which I co-wrote with Dr Graham Joseph Hill, who is in Australia. So I've co-authored some books. I have co-edited some books and etc. But it's always a joy to kind of work with other scholars. Dr. Hill always says he never gets invited, so I feel bad because we co-wrote the book together. But Australia is much like Canada. It's a very small country. Land wise, it's huge, but population wise, it’s small. So he always complains that I get invited and he doesn't. But here's many factors involved. US, it's a larger country with more population. But anyway, I don't know what the factors are, but I'm always so grateful and so honored when universities and seminaries invite me to do book talks. Because I do. It takes me so long to write the books. I'm just grateful that people are reading it because you put so much effort and time into it, and then the fact that they want others to learn about it is a huge honor. And every day I'm grateful for that. For any invitation that comes my way.
[John Borthwick]
Here's a quick unpaid commercial break. Grace notes in the interview that she has written and edited about 22 books at the time. We recorded this podcast in November 2023, but we didn't want you to miss out on the opportunity to hear that she's actually published two more books in 2024. And who knows, she maybe even has another book coming out this year as well.
Two of her new books were published in March and May of 2024 respectively. The first is entitled Surviving God: A New Vision of God Through the Eyes of Sexual Abuse Survivors. This one was co-authored by Dr. Susan M. Shaw, a professor of Women, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Oregon State University. Now in this book, theologians Kim and Shaw, survivors themselves, take a new approach by centering the voices of sexual abuse survivors while rethinking key Christian beliefs, when it comes to our traditional understanding of God. This book seeks to lead the church into deep healing and transformation so that it no longer contributes to the devastation of sexual abuse, by reimagining who God is when seen through the eyes of survivors.
And her second book is called When God Became White: Dismantling Whiteness for a More Just Christianity. In this timely book, Grace explores the historical origins and theological implications of how Jesus and God became a white male. She examines the roots of the distortion, its harmful impact on the world, and shows what it looks like to recover the biblical reality of a non-white, non-gendered God. Together, we may rediscover a more just faith and a better church and world is her hope. Theologian and friend of Grace, Brian McLaren says this of her book: “I read everything I can by Grace Ji-Sun Kim, but I especially needed this book as a white man who inherited a white male god, I am grateful for this Korean born theologian who gently, clearly and firmly guides readers like me into a bigger, deeper, more awesome, and just understanding of the Holy One”. Keep on writing with grace. Dr. Kim. And now back to our interview.
[John Borthwick]
For future authors, future people who are thinking they want to write books and stuff like that, I'd love to hear, I've heard it described by other creative types, that sometimes a book is something that they sometimes describe it as they didn't necessarily write it themselves. They knew it was within them. And you talk a lot about the personal nature of what you bring to a book. I mean, they always say, write what you know, so you know your own self far better. How would you describe how these books, or the inspiration for these books comes to you? Where do you feel? How would you articulate it?
[Grace Kim]
I think, because I'm a scholar and a theologian, it's different from those who write novels. I think that is a different process. And those I consider like real writers. For scholars like us, we want the only way to convey our ideas is through writing. So by default, we become writers. So that's how I categorize myself. Because, you know, I think those like JK Rowling, who writes these novels, I consider them real writers. But for scholars like me, and then there's a ton of scholars who never write too. So, when I look at the landscape, there's only a few of us that are really producing a lot, and my work is evolving in the sense that it's not as scholarly as my original work.
There's a lot of great scholars who write. Oxford University Press, Harvard University Press - these are important works, and they are for the Academy. But I feel, outside the academy, people aren't reading them, and they're important work, but it's a very it's a different type of writing, too. So I've kind of moved away from the more academic work, although I just did co-edit. The one that came out most recently is Christianity in North America. It's volume seven. I think there's eight or seven volumes, and that's published by Edinburgh University Press. It's only an academic book, highly academic. So I still do those, but less of them, because for me, I find, all the time and effort I put into writing them, I want as many people to read them. Every writer has hopes that, we'll be the New York Times bestseller, but you gotta sell a ton of books. I'm not there yet, but that's something that many of us aspire to.
So, I'm writing lesson, I still preach at a church. Most Sundays I'm at a church. I'm doing some interim work, but even before that, I was always preaching somewhere, because there's so many PC USA churches that don't have a minister, or they may need some time off, but there's a ton of other churches where I am that need a preacher. I can't do everything, because I'm now kind of tied down to this one particular church. But so for me, I'm always in the back of my mind. I'm writing for the general public, and not just for those who are studying in a seminary-oriented university. You know, it's not geared so much for other professors, other researchers and students. I'm hoping that they'll read it too, and that's how I get invited to the colleges and universities. But it's really for my kids, but many of them don't read it, but just like for the general public, and so for those types of books, much of my stories come in. But I think in general, I think theology, because when I co-wrote intersectional theology with Susan Shaw, we said that, theologians, we all write within our own, from our own context.
And so, when feminist theologians, when we started writing about our experiences, because that's how feminist theology arose, because so many of these male theologians were not taking into consideration women's experiences and our stories. But once we started doing that, lot of the male theologians got all mad at us, saying, oh, you can't do that, because then that's not theological. So there was a lot of criticism from particularly white male theologians. White male Eurocentric theologians.
But, John, when we dig into it, and you know when you and I studied at Knox, and you know we had to read John Calvin and Luther and Augustine and Aquinas, all these kind of white male European theologians. Oh and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and all these other major theologians, they were all writing from their own experiences. Bonhoeffer, his letters from prison were because of his stance during the war. And when you think about Luther going against the Roman Catholic Church, that was from his experience. And Calvin, too, and Knox. Every one of them were writing in their own particular context. Their personal experiences may not have seeped in as much as my work, or other feminist theologians, or other constructive theologians, or I call feminists. You know, there's a lot of, the breadth of theology is enormous, but it's still there. Augustine talks about his struggles of sin, and humans, confessions and all. So it's there. It's just when people, when women do it, we're criticized. Or when people of color, that's a terminology that I have to get used to. Because in Canada, I was a visible minority. So all throughout my life, I was considered a visible minority, and then I moved to the US, and now I'm a person of color overnight. So I have to struggle with these terminologies and labels, and I struggle with it. One day, I might write about it. I might have written a little bit, but am I focused on it a bit more.
But that's how I kind of write. Because your question was, how do I come to write some of it. You know, I've reflected on it a lot. All these injustices done to me. So I do write about it in the book Invisible, and I wrote it about it in the Homebrew Christianity Guide to the Holy Spirit, and in some of my other books.
And I blog a lot too. So in my blogs, majority of the blogs, it's because I'm angry about something or upset about something. So the ones that you know made it to Time Magazine, I think, called “Oscar So white”. I was going home from some event, and I was at the airport, and I rarely watch TV, but I don't even know why there was a TV at the airport, and it was Oscar night. And who was that black comedian that did Oscar so white? Chris Rock, yeah, Chris Rock. Leading up to the Oscars. I'm there at the airport watching it, leading up to it, there was a whole thing about #oscarsowhite And you know, everybody was complaining that, all the winners, all the nominees, are white. But then Chris Rock got up there, and then he brought in, like, these Asian kids on stage, and he was like, making jokes about, kids working in a factory, making phones. I can't remember, because it's been a while, and I saw that, and I was really, really angry. I thought, leading up to the Oscars nights, everybody was saying, #oscarissowhite, but why does that mean that that Asians aren't included in this dialog? Because it was a dialog between black and white. The black people are angry, but so are Asian Americans, and so are the Native Americans, and so are the Latinx community. Because they are not nominated, let alone be hired as a lead in any kind of movie. So there's many, many problems and layers attached to it. But when Chris Rock, as a black comedian, got up and started criticizing Asians, and there were other jokes about Asian and Asian American community, I was very upset. So I wrote a piece, and Time Magazine took it. I just wrote it, I think, on the plane, and then Time Magazine took it that next morning. But you know, some of the best ones come up because of these injustices. I was really angry at the airport. I thought, how is this happening? If the hashtag never happened, I would be upset too. But because of the hashtag happening, and then him making fun of the Asian Americans - that was unacceptable. But it happens over and over again. and, those lead to, then me writing these blog pieces, and then some of them get into my books.
So there's many reasons why I start writing a book. I don't know the one answer, but there's several layers of how. So for those who want to write books, I think you have to serve yourself. It has to be something that you know about, first your area. Whether you're a scholar or just wanting to write a book, you have to be kind of well versed in that area. And then it has to be something that comes within, because otherwise you're going to start the book and you're never going to finish it. I've written a few books too. I don't and they're not finished,
[John Borthwick]
Right
[Grace Kim]
You know what? They think I'm going to go back. But I think if there's no kind of importance, either on the topic or it's if it's not coming from within, I've started many books and they're not done.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, they're still germinating, or they were never meant to be, I guess both.
[Grace Kim]
Some are germinating, and I may finish it, but some, I think that the desire or the drive is not there because it's not coming from this part of life where you find it very important. I find all of my books important, whether people find them important or not. But they're all because I'm trying to either tackle a theological topic of dismantling racism, dismantling sexism.
The books that are coming out in 2024, one of them is Surviving God, co-written with Susan Shaw, and that is dealing with sexual abuse that happens in society, but then also in the church. We know the Roman Catholic Church, its enormous problem, but it's not just their problem. It happens in all of our churches, and pastors and youth leaders, they get away with it in many cases, or the churches just think it's not a big deal. So we wrote that because of what's happening. And then the other book that's coming out is called When God Became White. That wasn't my original title. Surviving God, I think it was our original title. But, you know, publishers have the last word at the end of the day, right? And few books I fought, and other books I just let it go. It's not even worth fighting. The book Invisible, they took that title and I was happy, because if they changed it, I would have been really upset. Because the whole crux of our experience here in North America is invisibility. So I was really glad that they took it. But When God Became White, that wasn't my original title. It was called “Whiteness”. And they came back and said, oh, it's such a general topic. And it's true. You know, psychosociologists write about whiteness. Psychologists write about whiteness. Religious scholars, theologians. So they came up with When God Became White, and I didn't like it because it's so long. I'm always thinking of hashtags for my books, and it was too long. You know, Invisible. It's great because it's one word and it doesn't take up much space, and people remember it. And that's another problem, I can't remember my book titles, let alone people's names. I'm glad your name is simple, John, but you know, my kids get really angry because I can't remember their friends’ names. So I always thought after Invisible, I said, all my books are gonna be one word title. So that's why I liked “Whiteness”, because it's one word, and I was so excited to give it “Whiteness”. And then, after they said that, and then they came up with, when God became white, I said, it's a little long, so can we just do God Became White? And then they said, no, the term “when” is very important. So now actually, I love the title. It's a huge hashtag, so I might not use it as a hashtag. But anyway, I really like it because it gets to the crux of it. Because I was trying to figure out why this racism is so prevalent in theology and in our churches, and it's because we have a white God, and the “when” is important, because God was not always white.
So I'm excited about the book. I can't wait for the book to come out. If you know, people are already now inviting me for podcast interviews on the book, and I'm so excited that people are already excited. It's not until May, so it's months and months away, but for people to invite me already for a podcast. I'm thrilled about it.
[John Borthwick]
It's certainly a very timely topic. It's been prevalent for many, many years, having ticked all the boxes myself, of privilege and stuff, I came to some realization a few years back, where there was a sense of for my own personal journey I needed to do the work. But also being a church leader, someone who stands up in a congregation and leads a congregational community, there was a sense that you could never address the issues around racism or anti-racism. Because of privilege, you had a choice to never address it, as a leader, and certainly as a congregation. Many congregations probably aren't going to give you a hard time if you don't address it or don't speak to it. So several years back in the congregation I was serving, I decided that we I needed to start speaking out about it much more talking about it much more. And so it's amazing when folks like yourself create accessible books, to have to begin to have those conversations and congregations, because it's such an important conversation to be having within our society. But definitely, as you say, within our church communities, because so many of the historical challenges and tragedies and horrific things that have occurred within the Christian church, have often been a direct result of systemic racism that still exists to this day within our churches.
[Grace Kim]
It happens all the time, so I'm always grateful for white people who stand in solidarity with people of color to fight this systemic racism it is prevalent. When I think about religion and, I don't know how the academic sphere is in Canada, because I've left so long ago. But here in the US, one of the first things, if they're cutting budget, is the religion department and the philosophy department, and many of them are already combined, because they don't have the budget to have a religion department and a philosophy department. So they're the first ones to go. And when I think about that in the colleges, it's so important that we maintain our religious studies, or understand how important religion is, and theology is, because it really determines so much of our actions here in the US, you know, fighting abortion, fighting climate change, immigration, all those are fighting war, with what is happening now in Gaza. In the back of their mind, all the senators, all the representatives, in the back of their mind, what is determining how they're going to vote is all on how they understand who God is. You know, if they see God as a white male god, of course, abortion is not important. Women's rights are not important, and immigration is not important. And a white male, God, oh yeah, we can go into war anytime, any day. Of course, we can spend millions and millions of dollars that we don't have, that we should use to help the poor. And here in the US, the big problem is the healthcare system, because we don't have the money to provide for healthcare, but we can engage in all these wars around the world. It is mind boggling. But it is really determined by how we view God. And people will say, the color of God or how Jesus looks like doesn't matter. I recently came back from Palestine, and Reverend Otis Moss III was there. He's a pastor at Trinity United Church in Chicago, which is Obama's old church. His father, Otis Moss Sr., worked with Reverend Jackson, and worked with Reverend Dr. King. He shared the story. We were in Jerusalem, and he preached the Mount of Olives. And he said, Then I asked him, can I put in my book When God Became White? But I don't know if I can at this point, but I got his permission to, but he's preached a story about how Jesus is white. So we've made Jesus white, and I go over that in my book. And then someone said to him, Oh, it doesn't really matter how Jesus looks like if he's white or not. He goes, okay, then I'll put a picture of black Jesus at our church. And then they go, Oh no, no, no. You can't do that. As soon as you say it, people are all okay talking about Jesus. It doesn't matter if he's white or not. But we've made him white. You can see the progression of him becoming white emperor of Europe. That's what he became at the end of the day. But once you say, okay, we're going to put a black Jesus in our church, everybody is going to get all riled up and go, no, no, no, we can't do that.
But we can put a white Jesus, and everybody's okay. So, you know, I go over that in the forthcoming book. I don't want to talk too much about it, because it doesn't come out. I want people to buy the book and read it. What this, you know, how we view God and how we view white people? You know, that's why there's racism and all these wars that is happening presently. There's a lot of whiteness and white supremacy playing into this factor. So we have to kind of be able to analyze it and see what is happening, and see how this white privilege is playing into all these wars that we are engaging in, and which side we're going to follow under, which is horrific, because if we are Christians, you know, any denomination, if we truly say we are Christians, and Jesus said, Blessed are the peacemakers, none of us should be saying, Hey, go and kill somebody or engage in all these wars.
But throughout Christian history, for the last 2000 years, so much of our wars that we engaged in, we engaged in the name of God. We have gone into war in the name of God. We have slaughtered people, either in the time of crusades, or any other time here in the US, against Native Americans under Manifest Destiny, all under the name of God. Under a white male god, everything happened. We said it was okay. And that is happening again here in our present time, and it's so upsetting. It's devastating, because that is not the Christian message at all, but we have done it in the name of God under Christianity, and we continue to do it. And I it's so painful for me to see this happening in our present day around the world.
[John Borthwick]
yeah. So when we celebrate, we're coming into that time when we're going to be celebrating. The Prince of Peace, and yet so much of our story is about war and violence.
[Grace Kim]
In the name of God, we've done it, and we continue to do it. It is horrific. And when I see these Christian politicians, or at least they say they're Christian belonging to vast, diverse denominations here in the US, saying, of course, we can engage in war. It really breaks my heart. It really does. Christ never said to get engaged in war. He said, Blessed are the peacemakers. He lived under occupation. Under the Roman occupation, he never wanted to engage in war with the Roman Empire. No, his message was always loving our neighbor and being peacemakers, sharing hope and peace with the world. And we have distorted the message of Christ in so many ways, unbelievable ways, in the name of whiteness, and the name of a white male God.
[John Borthwick]
Well, I certainly look forward to this, this new book I was, I was reading the the prerelease on Amazon for your other book, Surviving God. So I'm looking forward to this next one as well. And I do wonder, I do wonder if part of what you were talking about when you're talking about these, the old male, white, male, Eurocentric theologians that we read back in college. What's fascinating about those individuals, the way you were framing it, is their experience, like their personal experience, or their personal perspective, essentially became the dogma of the church.
[Grace Kim]
Oh, yeah.
[John Borthwick]
As opposed to the diversity of experiences out there, it's like, you know, I've written a book, and I've had this one experience, and I've written several volumes of how I see theology, and now that will become what we all must affirm and salute every time. And fascinating how that works.
[Grace Kim]
And we have to recognize these white male Europeans. They were the colonizers, you know, they were the Empire. They you know, especially British scholars. They went out and colonized so much of the world, Asia, Africa, all, all, all parts of the world. And we see this also happening here in the US, the American empire, colonizing different parts of the world. So to read these theologians through the eyes of the colonized, of the oppressed, it's really hard for me to read some of them again, because they are portraying a white Emperor God and a white Emperor Jesus. I think rereading the Bible, there's many, many new books now, in the last 30 years, with post-colonial theology, post-colonial biblical scholars, who are doing great work, and then Palestinian theologians and biblical scholars really teaching us how we have been misreading the Bible, misunderstanding who Jesus is. Because I came back from Palestine, you know, I spent time in Bethlehem, Japa and Nazareth and Jerusalem. When you study the geography - you know when Jesus was born in Bethlehem. So we went to the Church of Nativity from that geography to go into Egypt. Give must have crossed Gaza, or must have gone through Gaza. And when you think about that, because I kept thinking about it, we never went into Gaza. But if you think about Mary and Joseph fleeing because of what was happening, you know, Herod wanting to kill, and then them fleeing to Egypt and crossing Gaza, that is holy land. You know, it is holy land, and you should not be bombing the Holy Land. So I just you know when Palestinian Christians are teaching us so many things about the geography of the Holy Land? I don't know if they're writing about Jesus crossing through Gaza. It's my own when I look at the map, so I may be wrong, but I am thinking that they must have gone through Gaza. There's kind of no other way to get into Egypt. I don't know how harsh the terrain is, south and Gaza to get into Egypt, but I'm thinking, so it's my own thinking, but no Palestinian Christians have been teaching us so much about how the Western Church have used the Bible to weaponize Palestinians and other. Colonized people. So we really have to read and welcome different people to the table. Somy theology is from an Asian immigrant woman's voice, and it's, it's a small voice, and that's why, John, before, I was saying, I'm so grateful when people read my book and invite me to speak, either at conferences or at universities, because I think 30 years ago, no one would be no one would care, because 30 years ago or so, they still just wanted to hear white male voices, because that is the “truth”. But I think now, when people recognize that we need to welcome different people at the table, I am always so grateful and happy that people understand that there are queer voices, oppressed voices, non-able bodied voices, immigrant voices. And so we need to hear all these voices, because theology is enormous and there is lots of room at the table. We have to welcome all these voices because the different people all come to understand God, who is vast and infinite, and we will never come to the fullness of God. And so you know, hearing these voices will help us get a deeper understanding of God. And so me saying God is not a white male god is another perspective on this God that we have made into a white male god. And Mary Daly, a feminist theologian, said, when God is male, then the male is God. She was really getting to the crux of the problem, because male theologians, for the last 2000 years have continued to say “God is a man”. But I would add, if God is a white male god, then the white male is God. We have to really be careful of our languages and how we understand who God is, because it really affects our own behavior, our own ethics and how we understand and view the world.
[John Borthwick]
Grace, amazing.
[Grace Kim]
You are too, kind, John, I need to come back on your podcast more often.
[John Borthwick]
You do for sure, there's so much more to talk about, so many more questions to ask. You have been on an amazing journey. So great to reconnect with you after so many years. I look forward to the fact that you are coming to Knox College in a few weeks. This this is being recorded November 1, and we're looking forward to you being with us in a couple of weeks at Knox College, and I hope we continue to be connected. I'd love to have you back to talk about your newest books and continue to see the journey as it evolves for you. Thank you so much.
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