Interview with The Rev. Dr. Paul Scott
In November 2024, The Rev. John Borthwick, Director of the Centre for Lifelong Learning and Curator of Ministry Forum took the opportunity while on retreat at Sumac Centre with some clergy colleagues to interview The Rev. Dr. Paul Scott, Sumac’s resident director. Paul recently celebrated his 60th anniversary of graduation from Knox College at the College’s 40+ Alumni Luncheon held last month. Unfortunately, the audio recording of this interview was corrupted (“Not surprisingly”, we imagine Paul would say!) and we weren’t able to turn it into an episode of The Ministry Forum Podcast. So instead, we’ve salvaged some of the nuggets of the conversation and we’re sharing them here with you!
John: Let’s begin by speaking about your call to ministry?
Paul: I grew up in a place called Hespeler when I was young, now part of Cambridge, I grew up in a family that was a lower class. My father was a welder, union rep, and a fundamentalist so that's where my growing up as a Christian began. As a high school student, I was planning on being an architect, but our youth group was regularly responsible for doing a service at least once a year at St. Andrew’s in Hespeler and on one occasion our minister asked me to preach the sermon. I was 16 when I preached my first sermon. Our minister started spreading the word about me and I ended up preaching evening services in little country churches all over. As I did so, everybody's telling me I should be going into the ministry. I resisted, resisted, and I was still resisting when I went to Knox College a little later, and I was still a fundamentalist. But while at Waterloo Lutheran, every denomination had a club back in those days, and we Presbyterians had the Westminster Club, and one of the students in that club was assigned to provide students who were planning on being in the ministry to preach in all these vacant rural churches all over the area. So, I got to do that as well, and people kept telling me that I should be going into ministry. And so, I went to Knox College and graduated from there in 1965 and in those days, we had to go where we were appointed. They gave me two choices. I could go to a four-point charge in Prince Edward Island or to St. Paul's Church in Corner Brook, Newfoundland – so I chose the latter. When I left St. Paul's, I then joined InterVarsity Christian Fellowship in Ontario. Later, while I was doing some graduate work, I ran into an old friend, The Reverend Dr. Alan Aiken. We got talking about doing team ministry. So, we sent out applications to every province but Quebec. When we realized we had missed Quebec we found one vacant church and applied there too – it was a suburban church. Well, the congregation in Quebec was the only one that took us seriously. So, we ended up being called – the two of us – to the Church of St. Columba by-the-Lake in Pointe-Claire. Quebec. And it was the first time in the history of the church that two names were on the same call. It was there I served for 28 years with various members of the staff team concluding in team ministry with The Rev. Dr. Ian Fraser at the end of my time there.
J: In a previous conversation, you mentioned that you and Ian would often teach your lay people how to pray. A lot of Presbyterian Church in Canada clergy – from what I've noticed in our culture being defined by decent and in good order – hold a strong sense of control that happens within a worship service. I’ve observed that some clergy are very, very concerned about releasing control unto the people. And so, if they're not doing the praying, holding moments of silence, being invited to respond to the question: ‘Does anyone want to share a name or offer a prayer themselves?’ they remain spectators. It feels to me that clergy I've known have been very concerned about losing control. How did you mitigate that? Or was that not something that you were wired with?
P: Oh, I'm a total control freak. That's where I start out. And your description is dead on. We, Ian and I, we set up what we called seasonal groups. We would put together a group of lay people for each season of the Church year. The group had to be teenagers up to people in their 80s - half male and half female. Anyone who wanted to become a member of the congregation had to be in a seasonal group before they could join the church. And then we agreed, “Hey, we're going to have to give this group power if we really want them to take on ministry here.” Because they had to pick the theme for the season. They had to choose someone who would do the prayers during that season. They had to do something about mission and organize study groups. They were responsible for everything. So, we did the first one for an Advent season, and the group chose the theme Back to the Future. We showed the movies. We had the sandwich boards up. And I was responsible for that group. Well, I should say, not responsible… I was a member of that group. And I said, well, then we should have a model of that “Back to the Future” car on the Communion table, and they said, “No, we want a real car!” When I told Ian what this group was up to, he expressed a sense of “Oh my, where do we go from here?” The group went out and rounded up an old Honda Civic. They had it cut it in half and put the back end of that car up against the front wall of the congregation and painted a road on the wall leading to Bethlehem. That car showed up nationally on both CTV and CBC. And that was the beginning of a whole new era of worship in the congregation.
That was followed, for example, by a Pentecost theme highlighting the power of the Spirit where the Energizer Bunny showed up in every service during that season. Alice in Wonderland showed up on one of them. Sherlock Holmes showed up along the way. And the person who would show up would gather up the children and take them off to church school. Eventually, the leadership changed the name of Church School to “The Absolutely Amazing Adventure Centre.
We always insisted that whatever theme was being preached on would also be imbedded into the curriculum for the church school so that when the kids and parents went home, they would be able to talk about what they had learned together. We often had whatever the kids did in church school show up at the end of the service and they’d share what they had been doing.
J: Let’s talk about the Sumac Centre. A beautiful oasis in the woods of Central Frontenac for retreat and rejuvenation. I’m aware that this has been a space for many over the years – including myself and some colleagues who have visited for a retreat annually for over a dozen years. For you, Paul, I sense this space has offered you the opportunity to continue to grow and learn from your guests.
P: I’m often invited into the conversations with guests – from a diversity of religious backgrounds and no religious background as well as various ages and stages of life. Once they find out I’m clergy, I get all the questions.
J: You’ve been retired for almost 25 years, has Sumac Centre been a place of ongoing ministry for you?
P: Absolutely, especially with younger people. That’s what I enjoy the most. They appreciate how open we are here to having discussions with them and they keep coming back. The property itself also captivates them. We have just under 600 acres. We have 16 kilometres of trails through a variety of bio systems. We have our own private lake, and we have property on a second lake where there’s a waterfall and massive cliffs that all the younger people like to jump off. We are looking forward to building a large forest labyrinth as many of our groups are seeking the experience of nature for their personal wellness.
J: Do you have any thoughts on how one sustains a life of ministry? How does one be faithful and obedient in the same direction for a long time?
P: Meditation. I spent a lot of time sitting out in the woods just meditating. I try to keep myself as healthy as I can, not just physically, because, hey, I'm 84. I've got to get out there and I love the trails on the property. You've just got to, in today's world, take time away for yourself.
J: Any prognostications for what’s in store for the institutional church?
Read about Paul’s prognostications here.
P: I'm now telling every congregation I deal with – and this should be the case for every congregation in Canada, as far as I'm concerned – that they should have a visioning committee that's constantly looking at their future. This committee would be responsible to help them adjust their ministries to what's happening in the culture. And part of that should be the reality that you're probably going out of business. So, the visioning committee should keep that in the back of their heads at all times. What do you want to have happen to this building and this property? You paid for it. So, talk about it now, while you're in the position to do so, I think every congregation should be doing that for sure.
I think we, The Presbyterian Church in Canada, in terms of our current institutional form, are also going out of business. I don't think the tradition, the Christian tradition, is going to disappear. It's been up against one thing after another, historically, and it's still here. And at its heart, it has something to offer. It still has something to offer! The first thing those early Christians asked (and it was basically a Jewish sect) was: Are we going to let those Gentiles in or out? And then they had to answer century after century – who is in and who is out? And that question for the Christian tradition has never gone away. It is also embedded in Canadian culture. Who's in and who's out? That question never goes away and as Canadians, we keep asking it. My prediction is – I think we are going to end up with something like the first two centuries where we're going to have Jesus communities spread across the country and they may be very different from each other in some ways. And they will also differ in how they share the heart of the Gospel message.
Oh, I may get defrocked for saying this: I also think we should give Jesus a demotion. We've turned Jesus into a superhero and then we tell people they're supposed to be like Jesus. What's going on here? We've got to get him out of the clouds and get his feet back on the ground and listen to what he's saying to us as a fellow human being. At the end of his life, he says to his friends, I'm on my way out of here, but I'm going to send the Holy Spirit. And then what does he say? And this is Jesus demoting himself. You're going to do greater things than I did. What does that mean? Come on. That's what I'd like us to get a hold of with the Spirit. How are we going to do greater things than Jesus did? Well, get him out of the clouds and listen to him. Get back to those parables – those stories – use the stories that he told.
J: I can see the passion of that young man who was noticed as a preacher worthy to be heard at 16 coming out in what you are saying. I wonder, as we wrap up, if you were that 16-year-old today, would you still, if there was some kind of Spirit’s call to you, would you still want to serve the church today? Would you be going to seminary? Or what would that look like for you? What would young Paul Scott be in this era of church? Because I sense when you served the church it was still quite strong. And from our many conversations, I imagine that you had a good ride for a bit.
P: I was ordained when The Presbyterian Church in Canada was as big as it ever was. And by the way, the part of my evangelical background that I've never lost is my passion. And we need passion. I imagine, probably because I always love a challenge, would say: “What do you mean we can't do that.” I might take on the challenge of going into ministry just to help the church move on to where it's going to be – beyond the institution. I think that's a spectacular challenge. How do we do that? Get ready for it's going to happen. Things are really going to change. And I love change.
J: I think that is a hopeful response in the face of what we are up against – the reality of what church looks like today. So often you'll hear people say, “Well, why would you ever want to be a minister?” But I think you've summed it up in a way that, at least for some, could be exciting. That could be very exciting, and again, connected to the passion of why we do what we do – seeking to follow Jesus, sharing the Good News, bringing hope and healing to a hurting and broken world… that's a pretty good mission to be on.
P: Yes, we need to find those people who like that kind of challenge and can live with everything being up for grabs. And that's not everybody. It really isn't.
When I'm talking to the 20 somethings, they still want to talk about the spiritual issues. They want to talk about the mystery of the universe. They're into that. Do we have something to say to that? I think we do. But how do we talk to those younger people – and not just the ones who are in the church – the ones who aren't in the church? I want your Ministry Forum listeners to respond to you on how we have those conversations.
Ministry Forum “readers,” we’d love to hear from you. How would you respond to Paul’s prediction? And how would you answer Paul’s inquiry: “How do we have conversations with young people who are interested in spiritual issues or the big questions or the mystery of the universe? What do we have to say to them?” Feel free to leave a comment below or reach out to us.
Our thanks to The Rev. Dr. Paul Scott for taking the time last November to share his passion for Jesus and ministry with us. If you are interested in visiting the Sumac Centre for a personal or group retreat, please reach out to them directly through their website: https://www.sumaccentre.ca/ Paul will be there waiting to greet you! (potentially with a beverage in hand).