Inter-Mission Experiences: A Panel Discussion
Summary:
Rev. John Borthwick is joined by ministry leaders Gale Macdonald, Meg Patterson, Matthew Brough, and Matthew Sams to discuss their personal experiences with the Presbyterian Church in Canada’s Intermission policy—a 10-week paid leave available every five years for rest and renewal.
Each guest shares how they discovered the policy, what motivated them to take it, how they prepared, and what they experienced during their time away. They reflect on challenges such as feeling guilty, setting boundaries with their congregations, and overcoming the initial difficulty of truly resting. Despite diverse ministry contexts, all found the intermission deeply rejuvenating and ultimately beneficial not just for themselves, but also for their congregations.
Quotables:
“But I had to, like, kind of forgive myself, let go right that I didn't accomplish that part of the intermission. So it's definitely a learning a learning experience for me.” - Rev. Meg Patterson
“We're going to miss you not being here. But you go, and I'm like, wow, overwhelmed with the grace of congregations and people and individuals at times, not to say that others in the congregation don't have commentary about that afterwards, but there's still a sense of the grace and gift of the people in your space and place.” - Rev. John Borthwick
“I think that taking these kinds of breaks proactively, so that we're not doing it because we're desperately in need of time away, but we're doing it because we know it's healthy and because we'll come back better, and because sometimes we just need to do something different. And so to be able to give permission to ourselves to admit that we're tired and that we need a break, and I think all of those things are really, really important for us to be able to do as ministers and leaders. And it also shows our people, because I have so many people in my congregation who are so tired and who work such long hours. And how can we advise them to try to find more balance if we're not willing to do it ourselves? So I think it also allows us to be a good example.” - Rev. Meg Patterson
About The Rev. Gale Macdonald
Gale is a Knox College graduate (2012) who served the congregation of Clarkson Road Presbyterian Church until November 2024. Gale has since moved to Cobourg where she is the Spiritual Care Provider for the county run long-term care home.
About The Rev. Meg Patterson
Meg Patterson is the minister at St. Stephen's Presbyterian Church, where she has served since November 2017. She lives in Ottawa with her husband and three teenagers. Meg's last Inter-Mission in 2023 included a pilgrim walk on Cape Breton Island, where this picture was taken.
About The Rev. Matthew Sams
The Reverend Matthew Sams is the minister at Willowdale Presbyterian Church. After working for 18 years in Information Technology, Matthew completed the Master of Divinity degree at Knox College (U of T) and was ordained in 2012.
In addition to serving as the minister and moderator at Willowdale, Matthew is:
Chair of the Ecumenical and Interfaith Relations committee of the Presbyterian Church in Canada
Director of The Presbyterian Church Building Corporation
Member of the Ministry and Church Vocations steering committee
Member of the Students and Education committee of the Presbytery of East Toronto
Matthew also works with local churches and organizations within the Willowdale community.
About The Rev. Matthew Brough
Rev. Matt Brough lives in Winnipeg with his wife, Cheryl, and their daughter, Juliet. He is the minister of Prairie Presbyterian Church, an amalgamated congregation of two churches, one of which was a church plant where he was the planting pastor (22 years ago). Matt serves as a ministry coach, has been the host of several podcasts including one on Christian Spirituality, and is the author of several non-fiction and fiction books. Find out more about Matt and particularly his books at his website mattbrough.com
Additional Resources:
Intermission Policy of the Presbyterian Church in Canada (2022)
Sample Inter-mission Proposal to Presbytery (Rev. John Borthwick, 2022)
Sample Inter-mission Letter One to Congregation (Rev. John Borthwick, 2022)
Sample Inter-mission Letter Two (detailed) to Congregation (Rev. John Borthwick, 2022)
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Transcript
[Introduction]
Welcome. Welcome to the Ministry Forum Podcast coming to you from the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College, where we connect, encourage and resource ministry leaders all across Canada as they seek to thrive in their passion to share the gospel. I am your host, the Reverend John Borthwick, Director of the Center and curator of all that is ministryforum.ca.
I absolutely love that I get to do what I get to do, and most of all that, I get to share it all with all of you. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to give us a listen. Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is made with you in mind.
Today on the Ministry Forum Podcast, it's that intermission experience. We're delighted to have with us in studio today, four ministry leaders from across Canada, well from as far west as Winnipeg and as far east as the wilds of our nation's capital. We're talking intermission and that whole intermission experience, each of these ministry leaders recently-ish, completed an intermission.
And just a quick reminder, and check out season one, episode six, for everything you ever wanted to know about the Presbyterian Church in Canada's intermission policy. In fact, if you're considering or wondering about intermissions, I'd actually recommend that you go back and listen to that episode first and then follow up with this one. But you do, you perhaps today's conversation will wet your appetite for an intermission experience.
So, intermission is about 10 weeks paid leave available to PCC ministry leaders for every five years of service, and it's for the purpose of rest and renewal and laying down the mantle of ministry for a season. We'll put a copy of the PCCs policy in the show notes of this episode so you can refer to it.
Our guests have a diversity of ministry experience and length of service. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about how they experience the intermission and what wisdom they might share with our Ministry Forum audience for those considering it, or perhaps ministry leaders listening who would like to encourage and support their minister or professional church worker to consider such an opportunity.
So please welcome today. Gale Macdonald, Meg Patterson, Matthew Brough and Matthew Sams, hopefully we can easily differentiate between the two. Matthews, we could go with MB and MS, or perhaps Winnie and Willow, based on where they'll serve, I don't know. Well, just kidding, or maybe just Matt and Matthew will suffice. So welcome friends. I'm excited to hear all about your experiences. Please say hi to the nice people.
[Guests]
Hello!
[John Borthwick]
Awesome. Well, let's dive in with each year taking a bit of an opportunity to introduce yourselves. Where you went to seminary when you were ordained, how long you've served in ministry, maybe, where you've served over the years, what year you took in intermission? And I know that's a lot, but I'm confident we can get through it all from each end. Maybe. Let's start from my screen, because I am looking at a screen right now, folks, let's start with Gale.
[Gale Macdonald]
I graduated from Knox in 2012 and I served for 12 years at Clarkson Road Presbyterian Church, and this fall, I made a big move and moved away from congregational ministry. It felt very much like a call, and I'm now a spiritual care provider in a long-term care facility, a non-profit county run facility in Eastern Ontario. I took an intermission last in 2023
[John Borthwick]
Great and Matt?
[Matt Brough]
Yeah, I graduated from Vancouver School of Theology in way back in 2003 and so served a congregation in Selkirk, Manitoba for three years, and then church planted in Winnipeg,and then that amalgamated. So it's kind of the same congregation, but been in kind of the same congregation for about 19 years, but in two kind of different incarnations. My last intermission was also in 2023 April to into July. A little bit I think. Yeah.
[John Borthwick]
Thanks, Matt. And Matthew.
[Matthew Sams]
Yeah. I graduated from Knox College also in 2012 and for the first five years, I served a two point charge in Oshawa, St Luke's and St James, and then for the last seven at Willowdale, north end of Toronto, and I took my intermission this past summer.
[John Borthwick]
Great, nice and fresh, so fresh, a fresh experience.
[Matthew Sams]
Yes.
[John Borthwick]
And Meg, what about you?
[Meg Patterson]
Yeah. So I graduated from Knox College in 2017 so I guess I'm the newbie among us today. And I took my first call in November of 2017 at St Stephen's Presbyterian Church in Ottawa, which is where I continue to serve. And I took my intermission in the summer of 2023.
[John Borthwick]
Excellent. And just as we're all doing this, I I graduated from Knox College in 1998 served two congregations, Rexdale, so with the Dales there, Matthew. Rexdale in Toronto for five years and 21 years at St Andrews and Guelph. I had the opportunity once I discovered intermission, which is going to be our next question, to take three intermissions during my 21 years at St Andrews and Guelph. My last one being 2022, I think was my last one, and then I switched from congregational ministry to serve as the director of the Center for Lifelong Learning at Knox College. So, tell me, friends, where and when did you first hear about the Presbyterian Church in Canada's intermission? And you can just popcorn this down.
[Meg Patterson]
So I had a colleague who was experiencing was on medical leave and ended up retiring, and burnout was one of the contributing factors to him being ill. And in seminary, we talked a bit about how to avoid burnout and how easy it is to have for it to happen, and how it can come out of nowhere. And so I thought, well, I should probably have some good practices from the beginning of my ministry to try and make sure that that doesn't happen. And so I decided, Well, might as well start with this, in addition to my sabbath practices, and some of those other things. And initially I thought it would be a great way. One of the things I was I regretted about Seminary is missing out on doing CPE, the Clinical Pastoral Education. And so I thought, Oh, maybe I could do a CPE unit during my intermission. And then I learned how emotionally draining pastoral care is, and I realized, oh, that won't be a rest. I read the intermission policy, and I'm like, oh, this is supposed to be able to rest and renewal. I'm not going to be able to rest and renew if I'm doing CPE. So I re-kind of formulated my plan as a result. And it was interesting, because I didn't think I needed an intermission, but I had planned for it, and I was looking forward to it. And then it wasn't long after I started that I realized just how tired I had been coming into the intermission and how much I really did need it.
[Matt Brough]
Right from the beginning of being in ministry, I remember, actually even in seminary more than 20 years ago, 25 years ago, that was good. We actually quite a bit of talk about self care, surprisingly, for back then. So I think that was already kind of instilled in me a little bit to look for opportunities for rest or renewal. And I've always taken my study leave and always taken my vacation. And I'm surprised by the number of colleagues that I run into that don't do that at all. So like, being aware of the intermission policy is one thing, but also, like, take your study leave and your vacation. And so I just found that when I would put together, you know, say, I've got four of my five weeks of holidays, and I would put those all in a row. What a difference that made to feeling rested coming back versus taking a week here or a week there. So, I'd already kind of observed that in my own ministry, just kind of seeing I'm way more rested, so having a longer break was just something that was me, I guess, naturally appealing to me initially, and I kind of constructed my first one, as I said, on my own, out of using study leave. So I definitely appreciated having more guidance, because the policy, I think, gives some good guidance as to how to do it. So that was quite helpful. But, yeah, I think it was just sort of that, that idea, that of just through experience of ministry, having that experience of being tired out already, and then not being tired at the end of a longer vacation, and just observing that, I think that that just made it a consideration for me.
I think as well, just on the congregation side of things, church planting is really is hard work, as well as pastoral care is hard work, and going through an amalgamation process with two congregations. I knew I was tired, so I think that was that was a big driver for me, and I’d already talked to my session prior to the amalgamation process, about having some kind of extended break, and then it just couldn't happen, just where the congregations were. So getting the congregation to a point to be able to say, Oh yeah, you can you can go, the amalgamation is kind of behind us, and we're doing well. It was for sure time for me, for that first one that I took.
[Matthew Sams]
Yeah, for me, it was, I just remember, yeah, I'm, I'm religious about taking vacation and and taking it in blocks, and then also taking instantly leave and, and it is vitally important. But I knew also that there was something else I wanted to try, something a bit different as well furniture making. And I was like, I'd like to be able to devote a significant amount of time to this one thing and not be thinking about the congregation
And I also remember friend of mine who says the day before he goes on vacation as a minister, he can get really short tempered with people when they come to him with pastoral care problems or concerns. And I wonder, Am I doing that? Not necessarily pastor care, but anything else. And so I just thought a time away would maybe reveal, are there things that I was just kind of putting off, not dealing with? And yeah, and I did discover that.
[John Borthwick]
Gale?
[Gale Macdonald]
Prior to coming into ministry and going to Knox, I worked a little over 20 years in cancer care, and I was the manager for supportive care and education, so I had all the allied health folks in my team and I had done a lot of work to educate and to put some programming in place around vicarious trauma, and I knew that as ministers, we are subject to that as well, and we're very vulnerable to it, and just the fatigue and the amount that you carry, even with good practices, and it's still there. So that was part of my motivation, because I had seen what it had done to other caring professionals, and so that was part of my initial motivation for doing it. And then, ironically, the second one I took it was - a couple of members of my session. And so it was after the pandemic, obviously, or we were coming out of the pandemic. My goodness, that took forever, but they came to me and they said, because they knew the policy, and they said, you're coming up to five years, and you need to do this again. And they and I said, Well, you know, it's so busy and blah, blah, blah, we're still trying to get people back and trying to come together again. And they said, it's not just for you, it's for us, and we want you to take this and not that, hopefully, I wasn't being snappy and stuff Matthew, but, but it's you know, it was them recognizing that if I took some time away and took care of myself and did that I would be better at coming back, and that we would all benefit from it. So I give them a lot of credit for having that perspective and insight.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, I mean something. Just want to lean into that really heavily, just around whoever's listening to this, from the Ministry Forum audience, like the ways in which folks in your congregation and other ministry leaders and colleagues can really encourage and support you in ministry to take those breaks and have that intentionality and see it from the perspective of there is, I mean, because they care for you is lovely, but also just a sense of like this is actually beneficial In the long run for all of us involved. You know, sometimes it's as weird as it sounds, and no offense to anyone, and I didn't take it in an offensive way. But you know, sometimes it's good to even have a break from the person who's always there. You know, absence makes the makes the heart grow fonder, or whatever. But because sometimes for ministry leaders they need to hear other people speaking into them to say, it's okay. It's almost like not that you need their permission, but it's nice to have that feeling that, you know, we see this and this is important. I think that's so great. And Matthew, your comment around this edgy and pastoral care piece - part of my journey and why I'm passionate about the work I do in ministry was I didn't know what I was experiencing in ministry until I got some words eventually, having experience kind of like not doing well, just generally as a person, as a human being. And what it is is related to that vicarious trauma stuff. Sometimes it's called a compassion fatigue. They're using new words now, like empathic strain. But it's essentially we carry as ministry persons, everybody else's stuff, including our own stuff. And sometimes how that shows up, and for me, I had the sort of the I used to hang out in the church hall before worship, and I would see someone coming in the doors of the church hall and coming right straight towards me, and I knew I wasn't doing well when I was having a think of like, I really hope they're not going to tell me someone else has a diagnosis or something bad is happening in their lives, or I just can't take another bit. I'm carrying enough, and I've got too much. And that's when for me, I came to realize, yeah, I think I'm carrying too much, and what am I doing? And I was doing all the things, taking vacations and study leaves and all the things, but sometimes we needed that longer sustained rest to help us recalibrate it maybe a little bit.
So let's talk a little bit about the process. I've heard some great things of people encouraging you. I've heard build your own intermission from Matt. That sounds awesome. You know, was it a smooth process when you approached it? Maybe the first time or the second time? Were there challenges? What do you think was the hardest thing? Maybe just even naming that would be really great. What was the hardest thing when it came to preparing to take an intermission?
[Matthew Sams]
Mustering the courage to approach session, even though they don't need to approve it.
[John Borthwick]
Yes
[Matthew Sams]
And just yeah, just kind of claiming it and saying, Look, this is available, and this is how it's can roll out, and it was very easy in the end. Session was very positive around it. They had their own concerns around pastoral care, and what happens if something happens, and we work through that. And you know, prepared good pulpit supply, like when someone would come in, they'd be in there for the months, kind of deal. And it was, yeah, it worked out really well. And then presbytery was, like, kind of excited about it too. It's like, almost giving them permission to take an intermission.
[Meg Patterson]
In our presbytery, we had a flood of intermission requests, right coming out of COVID. I don't know if that happened in other places, but I think in 2023 there were three, maybe four ministers in our presbytery who all took intermissions. A couple of them were delayed. They were supposed to take them in 2020 and postpone them, and others. So it was a little bit tricky in terms of some of the managing the emergency pastoral care, because so many people were away at different times.
But I was, I was a little nervous approaching my session because I had only been there because I wanted to, I followed the policy, and so wanted to have money taken out of my stipend for the two years leading up to it. So, when I started talking to my session about this, I'd only been with them, like two and a half years. And so there was a part of me that was like, are they gonna think I'm nuts? Like, what do I need a break? I've barely begun kind of thing, but they were really wonderful. They were so supportive. And they just, they were kind of like, you know, whatever you need. You know, I received even some, some gifts from both my session and from my congregation that were like, geared at what I was planning to do for my intermission. So people were just, they were super supportive, and I was very, very grateful.
I think the biggest pushback I had was from a couple colleagues who were like, I've been doing this 30 years. I've never needed an intermission. I just but what are you gonna do? I'm just like, Wow, thank you for your thoughts. Like, I don't know what else to say. So it's really interesting, right? There's this there's this sense sometimes that either we don't need it, like there's a there's a prize, if you get to the end without having had to take your vacation or take your breaks or whatever, or that, there's this sense that if you leave your congregation for an extended period of time, they're going to fall apart. And of course, there are times in ministry where it probably doesn't work, where it probably really will start to fall apart, but being reminded for all of us that it's Jesus Church, it's not my church, I think, is actually really healthy for all of us. So that might go into some of your other questions.
[Gale Macdonald]
I think I was the hardest part, getting my head wrapped around and figuring out that first time how to talk to session about it, and to get them on board. They were immediately supportive of it, and they had, when I was called, they had hoped that I would have a long term ministry with them. And so they saw this as a really important way of encouraging that and supporting that. And so they would, nobody said this, but it was kind of like, well, we'd rather you take the time away and be here for the next five years kind of thing. So, so that went well, and I just tried to work it so it was the easiest and the least disruptive. So, I ended up doing them in the summertime, so that it was the least disruptive kind of time for folks.
[Matt Brough]
Yeah, lot, lots of similar things for me to it's been said, but one, one extra thing that's maybe a practical, really practical thing is, it wasn't the hardest thing, but I, when I was first doing this, I thought, What am I going to do? Like that was sort of, I didn't know. Okay, well, what am I going to do for 10 weeks?
And so what I ended up doing, actually, was six months before my intermission. It was already kind of knew this was coming, and already talked about with the session, and maybe presbytery at that point is actually took a week of study leave. And the purpose of the week of study leave was to think about and plan for my intermission. And I actually found that really, really helpful. And the first one I did, I remember that one a little more clearly, because it was really sort of lost as to what I would do, is I was just looking up like, are there, is there, like a little mini course I could do that could be a bit of an anchor in the middle somewhere, or something like that. And I found, like, three little events that were all around the same area in North Carolina, and thought, Oh, I'll have a trip, and I'll go to these three events. And that really helped me just sort of frame a little bit about what I might do for my intermission. But having a time to plan it was helpful, because I can't even imagine the space to sit and have time to think about what I will do for those 10 weeks. But maybe that's a practical suggestion for people.
[John Borthwick]
Well, and Matt, I think, I think it's you, you have a practice of doing that even around sort of an annual planning is that true? Do you take some time each year?
[Matt Brough]
I have in the past, it's been a while. so, thanks for the reminder.
[John Borthwick]
Matt, you have a plan that you do that kind of stuff. Because I took that from you one time. I remember talking somewhere in connection with you, and you said I had never thought of using study leave in that way. I mean, I think we need to be flexible with our study leaves, just to say out loud into the audience. We need to be flexible with what those look like. Because, yeah, having time and space to think about, think things through, I think, is a really amazing thing. So that's a great thing to consider for intermission, for sure. And Gale, I remember your conversation with me was around exactly what sort of Matt's talking about. Yours was nuanced in the sense of, I feel I have to do all sorts of things. Otherwise I won't prove it to people or to myself that I've done something.
[Gale Macdonald]
Yeah, I had to somehow felt like I had to say that I made good use of the time, that it was worthwhile and that, that it was worthy, and all that stuff. And then, you know, my second one was, every morning, it was tea with Jesus and the birds. That was my, that was my game plan.
[John Borthwick]
Very good. I love that. I love that. Well, let's, let's dive into that. So it's a, it's a big question, but it's kind of like, you know, what'd you hope for? Imagine plan would happen during your intermission. Did that actually happen? So Jesus and the birds and tea. Did you include holiday time? That's just a sort of technical question. So were you off for 10 weeks, or were you off for 14 or 15? Yeah? How did it feel? What was the experience like? You know, whatever you want to share along the way. We've heard, I've heard a teaser, and maybe we'll start with Matthew, because I heard, I heard furniture making.
[Matthew Sams]
Yeah.
[John Borthwick]
What's going on, Matthew, tell us more about what you planned for and did. Did you make some furniture on your intermission?
[Matthew Sams]
Some. None that'll be for sale. I had a whole list of things I wanted to do, including stuff that you always put off, like personal things like, so, oh, let's get our finances. And in order, I like to cook, and so I wanted to make sure that I tried more vegetarian cooking and things like that, and and a lot of that stuff kind of did. And that was that was good. It, because, again, not thinking about Sunday coming around the corner or any other church commitments. And I had just finished a lot of obligations, and, well, not all obligations is the wrong word. A lot of work with different bodies in the church. And so there was a whole shedding that had happened as well. So that was great.
Yeah, I really wanted to explore woodworking, furniture, making more that's been something that's been with me for a while, and they wanted to devote eight hours a day for 10 weeks to it didn't quite work out. We renovated the bathroom or two. And things like that, and I did tack on five weeks vacation at the end, and that was really good, because four weeks into the intermission, my wife said to me, what's wrong? Because I was very agitated, and it was no expectations, and that I found very hard. You know, your whole life, in whatever vocation you have, your whole life is, you know, you've got expectations, and you've got this thing that you're working for, and suddenly that's not there. And it took me eight weeks to calm down, yeah, and so thankfully, I had tacked five weeks vacation on the end. So that was really, really helpful.
I was able to stay disconnected. We had a couple of pastoral things come up, and session handled it really, really well. And I had, I think it was actually you John, had suggested that, you know, that if session has an idea of what they need to do about something, maybe talk to whoever the pulpit supply is and say, This is what we're thinking of doing. What do you think? And they did that a couple of times, and it worked out really well. And we homologated the decision when I got back. So that worked out really well. And for the session it was and the congregation was good for them to figure out that, yeah, we can actually do this. Yeah. So that was kind of how it felt, agitated for eight weeks, and then finally settling in and so that was really good.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing that, Matthew. I think people need to hear that the agitation piece that's that's beautiful to share that for folks, yeah, others, what have others got to share?
[Gale Macdonald]
So it was hard at first to kind of wind down. And that first one I did, I had way too long a list of things that I, you know, the stack of books, the things that I thought I was going to do and stuff. And so the second one was the more fruitful one for me, because I let go of some of those expectations and kind of riffed off of what I had used as a bit of a mantra for the congregation during the pandemic. And I kind of just focused on connecting with God and connecting with myself. So I was a little gentler with myself, I was still surprised at how tired I was and how long it took me to start to feel rested.
I had a good plan in place for we had for, the last few years, been sharing summer worship with another neighboring Presbyterian Church. And so, I had we were responsible for a month in the summer, they were responsible for the other, and so that worked out. I was able to find a retired United Church minister who was well known in the area. And so she covered not just pulpit, but she did any emergency postural stuff that I needed. So for my congregation that was gave them the security and the stability that they needed. So they didn't contact me. The congregation that did contact me was the one where I was interim moderator, and they didn't quite understand the boundaries quite as well, even though they had a plan as well. But yeah, so I would say second one was much more effective, fruitful.
[Matt Brough]
It's interesting. My first intermission that I took, I. The way I described it was in week five, was when I felt joy return. And, and it was sort of like this realization of like, oh, like, when was the last time I actually felt this way? Like, that's Wow, that's been a long time. It was just sort of this all of a sudden thing, and, and I had been, I'd been at home for three weeks, and my plan had just been to go for like an hour and a half walk, usually listening to CS Lewis, actually, CS Lewis books, and then, and then, maybe write for an hour, and then walk back for an hour and a half and and one of the courses I was taking, I took a little mini course on CS Lewis, so that's why I was listening to that. But it took, like, going away and then coming back, and then it was okay. Now I'm starting to feel, I guess, more like myself.
But the second intermission, I also decided to go away. But I just decided I'm going to do a road trip and visit three, I have this quest to visit all 50 states as well, as well. All the provinces are done, territories eventually, too. And, and I had, I only have two left now, but I had five left a couple of years ago, so I knocked off three states on this road trip that I hadn't been to before. And, but the only timing that could really work out with some family commitments that I had that were happening at during the intermission was on day one of the intermission, on got in the car and drove, essentially drove to West Virginia from Winnipeg over a couple of days and and honestly, like I was in a place where I was just feeling pretty spiritually disconnected from God when I was going. I think lots of us had that experience during COVID, not just clergy, but many clergy, I think, felt a little bit like, where's God and all of this and in my life? And on that trip, and just hiking and in the forests in West Virginia, just having an experience of God being with me. So it was such a different experience than the than the first intermission, because I felt like God just showed up on like day three and just got a hold of me, and that set up the rest of the time. So I but it was, it was nothing that I really did. I don't think, I mean, maybe I pay attention to, like, maybe I need to go away right away and just leave things behind. Maybe there's something about that. But I think it's just God set up that second intermission for me on those first couple of days, and then that was just, it was a really, really wonderful experience. I did 13 weeks, so I had three weeks of vacation after the intermission, which also was very, very good.
[Meg Patterson]
Yeah, I didn't take any extra time. I just took the 10 weeks. And when I looked back at the year, because you can't take any study leave within six months. It didn't actually feel like 10 weeks of extra time. It probably felt more like six maybe or five, or like it didn't, because I'm not sure I was very good at taking my regular vacation time that year. Like I tried, but because usually I take the bulk of it in the summer, and my intermission was in the summer, like I think I may be, you know, most years you get seven weeks, and maybe that year I got 12 right. So, learning right, having only done it the first time. But the other thing was, this might be a little nuts. So I didn't grow up doing Christian camping of any kind, but our congregation is very involved at Gracefield, which is one of the Presbyterian camps. And my kids were really involved in Gracefield. And I started when I got here, organizing the chaplains for summer camp, kids camp. And I thought, I have never had a chance. I probably will never again have a chance to spend a bunch of time learning how kids camp works. So, I spent the first four weeks of my intermission living at Gracefield and helping with the kids camp. So, the first week was staff training, and then in the end, two and a half weeks of kids camp. And that was a wild way to go into an intermission. I am really grateful it was the start of my intermission, in some ways, because it meant I got to recover from that during the other six weeks of my intermission. And it was wonderful and joyful. The first week, when it was all training, it did feel like restful, because it was, it was a pretty calm and we did, we did some of the training lessons, like in the lake, right, like it was, it was pretty chill. And then the kids arrived and it was wild.
So then I got, I spent three weeks up at the cottage after that, and then we did a family. Only vacation in Newfoundland for two weeks. And then I ended my intermission by doing a pilgrim walk in Cape Breton through the Atlantic School of Theology. They do the Camino Nova Scotia, which I highly recommend. And I will say I think it was in that last week that walking, that we walked 62 kilometers over three days, and that was when all of a sudden my creativity returned. That's what I that's what I noticed at the end of that break, was all of a sudden I had capacity to think creatively and to imagine and to dream and to plan.
I'd gotten to the point where I was kind of, there's the there's something about the relentlessness of Sunday morning. And I love worship. I love leading worship. I love singing. But it comes every week, no matter what else is going on, whatever else you're doing. And I think I'd gotten into this, like, stuck in this routine where I couldn't really think outside of what I was doing. I was just kind of going through the steps and getting to step back, even doing worship completely differently up at camp, and then getting this time, all of a sudden, as I was walking, I was, like, planning and dreaming and it was really lovely. So one of the things I now look for to see that I'm I really am in need of a break, is when I stop having the desire to be creative with worship from with plan. I've got too much going on, right?
The one thing I didn't do - I also, for my first one, had way too ambitious of a plan, my big my other big plan, besides going up and learning about Gracefield camp, was to learn Hebrew over the course of the over the summer. So I had signed up for an online sort of do it your own, just, you know, do at your own pace kind of learning, learning thing. And it had, like, I don't know what it was like, 30 lessons, and I'm like, That sounds reasonable. So I think I got through like, seven of them, and so I learned a little bit. I had some fun. One of my congregation members gave me, like a calligraphy pen so that I could do, like, the proper ink type Hebrew characters. And that was really fun. So I played with that pen a bunch, and I learned a little bit. And then I was like, Oh, this is enough. But I had to, like, kind of forgive myself, let go right that I didn't accomplish that part of the intermission. So it's definitely a learning a learning experience for me. My congregation was very good. They, they did not contact me while I was away. I knew going away, and was a bit panicked, because I had three members in my congregation that were were sort of reaching the end of their lives, and two of them passed away while I was while I was away, and one of them had their funeral while I was gone. And not being there to do that was hard.
But at the same time, like the pastoral minister, my colleague, who I'd set up for that week, did a wonderful job. The congregation rallied around her widower and her family, and he felt loved and cared for. So, you know it, you know, from his perspective, he didn't feel, you know, abandoned or anything like that, right? He was still supported, but it was hard to not be there, to not do that important part. But I think it is important to be disconnected and to trust that God will, and the systems we've set up are going to take care of people while we're gone.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, and I really appreciate you naming that as well? Meg, because I think some of the anxiety for ministry leaders to not take an intermission is, what if something happens, like somebody dies, and you know me not being there, is that going to be something? And in my experience, having three that happened many, many times, the last one being the worst, where 11 people died while I was away.
And for me, the there's so many little gifts that come your way, where, where people will, the gift is you get to turn up, even though, when the first thing I heard when I got back was and I we're going to talk about this in a second, but my return to work plan was always to check in to the volume of email like the day before I came back, just so I knew had a glimmer of what I might be turning up for and connecting with a few key leaders and saying, Hey, what's happened while I've been gone? And so to hear that 11 people that died for me was one of those things where my priority that first week is to connect with those families and people like that. But the intensity within my own core of being was a sense of like, I've probably disappointed these people. I should have been there. They'll have felt abandoned, whatever, all those kinds of things. And I've been in ministry a really long time, and thought I'd worked out all those hooks and things that hold you get you sometimes. And yet, the gift of those folks who you get to now journey with them because, because folks move on when someone's passed away, and it's maybe been a few weeks later or months later, and now you get to step into it and be Hey, I'm here. Tell me more about what happened? If you've got good and faithful people covering, they'll tell you the story about the funeral. And hey, you're that person you put in place did a great job, and the congregation really stepped up, like all the kinds of things you're saying. And so there's a lot of little gifts of intermission that come your way. Even on the day of one of my intermissions, the very day I was walking out the door and I was not in a good space, and I was just wanting to get out. It's like, Please, no one come at me. I just need to go something really sad and tragic happened in a in a family. And I thought, Okay, this is it. I guess I can't take an intermission now, and the and just the fascinating gift of the family, saying to me, no, it's okay. We got this you. You've got that person. We've connected with them already. They're going to take care of us. We pray for you. You know, yes, it's hard. We're going to miss you not being here. But you go, and I'm like, wow, overwhelmed with the grace of congregations and people and individuals at times, not to say that others in the congregation don't have commentary about that afterwards, but there's still a sense of the grace and gift of the people in your space and place. The other thing I just want to name as a part of this, again, just for folks to reinforce it fascinating to hear you all speak about essentially, like several weeks, if not almost the entirety of finding joy again, feeling at peace. You know, shaking some of that stuff within us really calls into question. Five weeks vacation. I used to joke it would take me at least a week to decompress, and then, and then I'd have three weeks vacation, and then a week of sort of almost recompressing, anticipating that I'm going back. And my family would name it all the time. They'd be like, we'd be coming back from a road trip. And they'd be like, Dad, you're preprocessing work already. Like, I know, but I go back on Monday, and they're like, Yeah, but we know what's going on. And it's like, oh, anybody want to offer anything else to from what each other have heard? Other things you want to reinforce or just remind, reminiscing as a part of this,
[Matt Brough]
I think maybe connected to something you just said about, like reentry, back into the work. I think I did a better job with this in my first one, actually, and I'm thinking about it, but I had, like Matthew had mentioned, just tried to shed a lot of additional outside responsibilities, like yet at the presbytery level, or different committees, or even other things that aren't necessarily connected to church at all, but were just things that I'd been part of or and so I kind of came back knowing that I have sort of the, there's the core ministry of the congregation in place. Obviously, I'm coming back into that, and that's going to be what it is. And there was a few key things that I had said, I will, I will be back in this role on this date. But most of them, I had sort of just said, I'm done with this, and I'm going to make decisions later. So coming back, I just started letting people know. I think I even wrote, like a little script for myself on most of what I would say. But just basically said, you know, I'm just coming back from my intermission or this time away, and I'm going to take some time to really think about what things I'm going to commit to going forward. And said, you know, I'm happy. I'm going to start making a list. So thanks for asking, but I can't get back to you until January, and this would be in like, August or September. So I just gave myself, like, four or five months to just sit with things. And then in that new year, started kind of thinking through, well where am I actually needed, or what, what do I actually feel enlivened by to say yes to? Rather than just, you know, whoever was first at the door with a request for, especially some of those more outside commitments that I might want to be involved with, but just taking my time to take those decisions, and I think that ended up being a really good move, and more than one person actually when I when I told them that, I'm sure there were some who were pretty negative about it, but didn't say anything. But more than one person actually commented about, oh, that's really wise. Like they, they are gonna, oh, I'll take that. I want to try that in my professional life or whatever. How to, how can I try and do that? So they, there was quite a lot of respect for just saying, I'm gonna take my time and think about this. So if this is emergency, you know, move on to the next person, because I need to take a few months of just figuring out what gets added back in.
[Matthew Sams]
That's good. The Yeah, several people had said, you know, go back slowly. And of course, two weeks after coming back, the quick oppressor, he called and said, Can you be moderator this year? And of course, I said yes, because I can't say no, that's been fine. But yeah, I had unsubscribed from every mailing list that I had been on, including ones that I enjoy and the office and the session had basically unsubscribed me from their mailing lists as well. So because my work email address is my personal one.
[John Borthwick]
Matthew, Matthew, Matthew, we need to work on that. We need to work on.
[Matthew Sams]
And so it's so because they did that. It was, it was my inbox was not huge when I got back, which is good, talking about going back before leaving. I prepared, and I don't do this at all. I prepared three months of bulletins, so like readings, called worship, hymns, most of them, and sermon title, and gave them to our office admin, and so for the first three months back. I didn't have to worry about that, of
course. Now I'm back to, you know, Wednesday morning, giving her the info for the coming week.
[John Borthwick]
Did you prep? Did you prep the sermon for the Sunday you'd be back? I kind of like in advance.
[Matthew Sams]
Oh, I had Yes. For the first three weeks, I had done maybe a page or two of notes, wow. And where I found that time, I have no idea.
[John Borthwick]
What about you all? Did anyone else do that, like prepare, prepare worship and sermon for the first Sunday you'd be coming back or ahead of time, not sermon, my first Sunday plan?
[Gale Macdonald]
Yeah, yeah, I had planned a little bit out. And the first Sunday back, my plan was I went back to my elementary school days and what I did on my intermission. And because I thought that they needed to hear that, that they're the ones that supported it, so they needed to hear what it was like, the gifts of it, the challenges of it, and some of my learning. So yeah, and I would say the wisdom of yeah, reentry slowly. And that did not happen for me, especially the second time, because I was interim moderator, and we were in the midst of amalgamation negotiations, and so I had someone sit in for me in July. Everybody took August off, and so they were just raring to go come September. So that was I kind of had to hit the ground running on that one. But yeah, I done enough kind of planning for the Sunday part of it, and that it was, it was okay, but it was, it was definitely a thrust back in.
[Meg Patterson]
Yeah, I did a three or four week series on what I learned in my intermission, sort of breaking it up into the different parts. So that did allow me to to know kind of, I'm a planner anyway, so I do tend, like Matt was saying, to plan sort of seasonally, so I get, like, a whole chunk of knowing what I'm gonna be, at least the scripture readings in a sermon, title of some kind ahead of time. But September, like is always when things ramp up. So one thing about doing it in the summer is, I find September, you're kind of going full throttle as you get into the fall anyway. And our anniversary is in October, and so it's there's this whole series of events that happen in quick succession. So it and it, you know, I could feel it right away, like there was a little bit of a like, as you get back into it, you feel all that stuff that you've shed kind of all of a sudden, in place again and so it definitely took a little bit of adjustment. And I had made some sort of renewed commitments around daily scripture reading and prayer and sabbath keeping and things that got tested pretty quickly. So trying to keep those things was challenging.
[John Borthwick]
Well, and I think I'm picking up a little bit of a theme. I mean, it's not surprising, because we hear this a lot through Ministry Forum and just being in ministry in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, but the notion of responsibilities related to other courts of the church being an impact on the experience of intermission. You know, how do you how do you effectively create the same kind of boundaries that you're trying to create with your own congregation that you serve regularly. How do you create that effectively with other commitments you may have, or even with the presbytery? And then, you know, some of that gets thrown out the window just because of the reality of stuff that folks are dealing with in other churches and other parts of the courts of the church. Matthew, I too, I chose, I accepted the I actually volunteered to be moderator, because nobody ever wants to be moderator in our presbytery. It seems. I volunteered because I felt that I'd had an intermission, I'd had that break, and I said I felt I had enough space in places. Because, again, I always did the reset and the shedding like Matthew, Matt was talking about, I got some space, so let this be my offering to the press, which I'll be moderator for the year. Because I had already been moderator, I don't know, 10 years ago or something, but I thought, You know what? I'll just step in, and if that's helpful, to give others a break. Yeah. Interesting
Couple of things. I guess, the way I'd want to phrase this is, certainly, are you planning another one? But also wondering if you've put anything in place within your church, the congregation you serve, that the next person who comes you all will serve in different ways and long serving in the congregation is not going anywhere. Don't need to frighten anyone. But for some of you who are in congregational ministry now, but if you put anything in place so that the person who follows you wouldn't have to go through what you've gone through to try and make this happen. This would just be an expectation that whoever is serving in this congregation would do that like that they would or is that your thought of your congregation, anyways, the leadership you have there, they would just do this. What do you think?
[Matthew Sams]
I think, having gone through it and it being a good experience for the congregation and the and the session again, because we had really good pulpit supply, it worked really well, and they were all very encouraging to the congregation when they were here, that they won't have any kind of fear or anxiety about anybody taking one in the future. So I think that was sort of the first beginning of the foundation for that.
[John Borthwick]
When's your next one. Matthew?
[Matthew Sams]
Four and a half years from now.
[John Borthwick]
I celebrate with you. I celebrate. But what about you? Meg?
[Meg Patterson]
Yeah, my session was encouraging from the beginning, so I'm not really worried about them doing the same for someone else, and I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime, too soon anyway. I definitely will do another one. The when is a little bit of a question. I'm looking at doing some further studies starting this year, and I'm not quite sure how that is going to impact other things. So it's a bit of a mystery. In theory, I guess 2028 would be when I'm able to do one again, which sounds very futuristic, but also isn't really that far away. But I don't know if it'll happen then or a year or two after that, I've debated, probably not the next one, but maybe the one after. Instead of doing an intermission, doing a pulpit exchange somewhere else. I know people have done that to New Zealand or Scotland or different places, and I think that would be kind of a fun alternative, maybe to an intermission one time, but I don't know. We'll see where God takes me.
[John Borthwick]
You mentioned Shaun Seaman. He's like the poster child for doing pulpit exchanges. Yeah, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada. So you've got a good resource there. What about you, Matt?
[Matt Brough]
Yeah, three years and four months, I think, is when I can take my next one. Hasn't quite started a countdown, but no, yeah, I same thing. I my congregation was very supportive. My session was very supportive with the others. So I don't see that being a problem, whether it's me or whether, you know, down the road, someone else. I'm not going anywhere from, from where I am now, I don't think, and you know, a little part of me too is my daughter will be in three years, God willing, will be graduating from high school. So that may also just shift what that family planning time might look like. It might be one of those opportunities that that is available. There for my wife and my daughter and I to do something significant. I don't know what that would be, but so yeah, that might change the timing of it as well, a little bit too.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, one of my intermissions, I agreed to be that person that signs on the back of a permission form for public school looking, will you volunteer and help out at any of our field trips. And I decided for the entirety of my intermission I would say yes, and so I became the dependable parent who would go to all the Canada's Wonderland trip. I don't know lots of wacky things, and that isn't my typical space and place I'd want to be, but it was such a gift to hang out with my daughter and all of her school friends and a gift to the teachers to have another human to manage some of the challenges around the way. So, yeah, the ways in which we can incorporate family life with this kind of practice, I think, is a really good point, too. Yeah, and Gale, you've, you've transitioned into spiritual care and not congregational ministry. Any insights around - is this something that you could do in your in your current thing, or maybe even commenting on, you know, how you see in the current thing you're doing, a lack of that ability to do things? I'm just curious, because I've seen it in other professions, and it's like, Man, what a privilege ministers have that we can do this. But there's other professions who work very, very hard and they don't get a chance to have a break that's fully paid, and all those good things. Thoughts on that, Gale?
[Gale Macdonald]
Yeah, this was a big surprise to me that I made this move. I was, you know, the best laid plans. I thought that I would be at Clarkson for another few years, and, and God laughed and had another plan, and I said, Yes. But it is a very different context, and so it is, Yeah, the emotion of the work is different, but it's as is intense, and there isn't the same opportunity. You know, it's back to four weeks of vacation and no study leave and it's back into a different, different kind of world. So I would say to folks, yeah. I mean, we've heard, take your vacation, take your study. They take advantage of this opportunity, because it is just a tremendous gift. And what you get out of it. You can't, I mean, it's there been some similarities as we've been talking and some differences, but you can't predict what they are. And so I think just be open to what God wants to show you in the time and take advantage of the gift that's there.
[John Borthwick]
Yeah, that's awesome, Gale. Maybe some final thoughts of you know, sage advice, pearls of wisdom, prophetic warnings, what you shouldn't do, what you have to do, whatever you got permission, giving, scolding, whatever you need to do for the Ministry Forum audience. What would you like to leave them with?
[Meg Patterson]
We've talked about this a little bit, but there can often be a lot of guilt that ministers feel, certainly that I felt for taking time away. And I think it's important for us all to remember that we can't give from an empty cup, and that God doesn't call us to kill ourselves for our ministry. That, in fact, I think God wants us to thrive just as we hope that our congregations will thrive. And so, I think that taking these kinds of breaks proactively, so that we're not doing it because we're desperately in need of time away, but we're doing it because we know it's healthy and because we'll come back better, and because sometimes we just need to do something different. And so to be able to give permission to ourselves to admit that we're tired and that we need a break, and I think all of those things are really, really important for us to be able to do as ministers and leaders. And it also shows our people, because I have so many people in my congregation who are so tired and who work such long hours. And how can we advise them to try to find more balance if we're not willing to do it ourselves? So I think it also allows us to be a good example.
[Matt Brough]
I think the intermission can be that a real gift to the congregation as well. I think that's been mentioned earlier, but just it's a it's an opportunity for other potential leaders to step forward, and not necessarily just pulpit supply or hearing a different voice or having a break like you said, can be helpful too, just from having the same person all the time. But just Yeah, it's an opportunity for new people, even to come to the fore who might not have done that before, and just giving them permission to do that. I also find, like, we've all we've all mentioned summer being slower, and that's when I had mine, too. And summer tends to be a time when we're maybe a little more willing to experiment, might like too strong of a word, but it's like, if things aren't quite the same as they always are in the summer, it's fine. Like, that's, that's okay. So it kind of gives that extra bit of permission for for new leaders or potential new leadership. So we saw a little bit of that, and that's one of the things that I'm really joyful about. If I come back, even if it's just a way for vacation. If I come back and things have been handled without me having to be the person in the middle of it, I get so much joy out of that as a minister. So I can see as well that intermissions can sort of sometimes break possible cycles of codependency that we can get into quite easily, and just feeling like I have to be the one or I, you know, I'm being driven by a sense of a feeling needed. And is that what really ought to be driving my sense of self, and my sense of purpose and my connection to God? And if that, if those are the things that are driving it, having a reset is probably quite important. But I agree with Meg, like not getting to can we take these out of a healthy place, rather than a place of I'm operating out of codependency, and I need a break. How can we use these as maybe levers to watch ourselves and catch ourselves getting into things like codependency. So if something's being handled in the church, and then I don't need to be jumping in there, you know, I don't have to be the person who's primarily giving pastoral care when pastoral care is being given quite well and sufficiently and maybe even better than I can do it by a community or by a group of people. So it's made me a little bit more aware of some of those issues within myself, and then just trying to be more aware of that as I move through ministry around, you know, how do I maybe, maybe I'm controlling too much a little bit sometimes, and I just need to allow the Holy Spirit to do the Holy Spirit's work amongst the community of people. And sometimes I get just have the privilege of watching that happen. And isn't that lovely? I get to point it out to people sometimes. So I think it raises a whole set of issues around around the practice of ministry. That it might give us some perspective on how ministry is practiced. Not just for professional clergy, but the practice of ministry for the whole people of God.
[Matthew Sams]
Yeah, in everything that's been said. And when I think I'd mentioned earlier, just being away allowed me to see some things that, you know, like a couple of small conflicts that I had been saying, Wow, well, just let those lie. And realizing, oh no, they kind of actually need to be dealt with. And the time away allowed me to see that they need to deal with them. And that was that was fine and good. And it was interesting about, you know, giving people permission and not jumping in. And, you know, we used for four years now, we've had outdoor worship once a month in the summertime, and then a barbecue potluck on the front lawn and it's been really good. And this summer they didn't when I wasn't there,
and I didn't really say anything about it, but it realized that, you know, conversation with some folks that there was a lot of work to set up. They still did the potluck barbecue, but the outdoor worship was actually a lot of work for them to set up, and at this moment, they just didn't want to do that. And would they have still done it if I was there? Probably, is it better that they didn't? Probably, so yeah, that ability to change things with and figure things out on their own, was really, really good.
[John Borthwick]
Gale, the other thing that I just wanted to say before we stop is that I had done this for a colleague, and then I had a colleague and friend do it for me. So it was the same person. We did it for each other. They had their intermission the year before, me and we, we were each other's kind of sounding board, and so we committed to checking in with each other every couple of weeks, and just it was an accountability piece, but it was also to kind of talk through what we were experiencing, what we sensed God doing, what was happening with our faith, and what we were reflecting on and stuff. So I just, I found it helpful to be on both sides of that experience. And so, I would that's something for folks to think about as well. Is how you kind of have that kind of reflection piece and bring someone else into it. It doesn't have to be a paid spiritual director, but just someone that you can trust and be vulnerable with and that will also ask you, you know, some good questions.
[Matt Brough]
John. Can I just jump in? Because I'm wondering if others had had a spiritual director or because that was something I hadn't been in spirit. I had been in spiritual direction a few years before, but I wasn't in spiritual direction prior to, but I found a new spiritual director, and my priority was someone who was within walking distance of my house, because I wanted to be able to walk to see someone in person and not be looking at a screen for it, so I didn't want to meet online. And so I found someone, but I found her about three months before I took my intermission, so I was able to go and at least build a bit of rapport before doing that, and that was quite helpful for me. So I felt like meeting. We met every two weeks throughout the intermission, and so I found it very helpful to have already been meeting with her prior to starting the intermission, instead of just kind of going in cold, but I think, yeah, having a trusted friend or colleague or therapist, whoever that might be, is so important.
[Gale Macdonald]
Yeah, Matt, I had worked with the same spiritual director for probably eight years, and so we used our year before intermission as prep for intermission, and she always took the summer off so she wasn't available during my actual intermission, but we used our monthly time leading up and then coming out of it as, that was kind of a focus that we put on it.
[Meg Patterson]
You might need a future podcast John on the benefits of spiritual directors.
[John Borthwick]
Absolutely, absolutely.
[Meg Patterson]
I've never had a spiritual director and I didn't have one for my intermission. I'm not going to recommend this method for everyone. It worked well for me, but I actually had one of my elders from my church be the person that I connected with, and we connect about three times over the course of. But like he was very good about not talking about what was going on in the church. And what I found helpful was he knew me well enough and knew our church well enough to ask some really good and maybe even dangerous questions, but that got us, that got me thinking, and we had some really wonderful conversations. So that worked well for me. I'm not sure that that's going to work well for everyone. But yeah, it's, I think it's really important to have somebody you're checking in with, and that is part of our policy is that you have somebody.
[John Borthwick]
Let me, let me just share an abundance of generosity for you all gathering today to talk on the ministry Forum Podcast about that intermission experience. I think this will be a great gift. Many of the things that you've shared, some of the things that were similar, some of the things that were unique to each of your experiences, I think will be such a great gift to folks who are in ministry leadership in the PCC. Great reminders, and also perhaps what we have been encouraging folks. And the reason why I did the first episode on one of the first episodes on intermission, and then this one is a companion piece, is, I know of a church that actually a minister was considering an intermission, and he actually used the episode that we were, that I recorded just about intermission, and shared it with his congregation. And so I think having the episode I recorded, and now this, I think this will be a great gift to any ministry leader who wants to help to build the case for this being a good thing. And you guys have been great advocates of it, and I'm so delighted to see the ways in which it's been helpful to you and meaningful to you, and all the best as you continue in your ministries in all the various ways.
Thanks.
[Gale Macdonald]
Thank you for inviting us.
[John Borthwick]
Thanks for joining us today on the Ministry Forum Podcast. We hope today's episode resonated with you and sparked your curiosity. Remember, you're not alone in your ministry journey. We're at the other end of some form of technology, and our team is committed to working hard to support your ministry every step of the way. If you enjoyed today's episode, tell your friends, your family, your colleagues tell someone, please don't keep us a secret, and of course, please subscribe, rate and leave a review in the places you listen to podcasts, your feedback helps us reach more ministry leaders just like you. And honestly, it reminds us that we're not alone either. And don't forget to follow us on social media at ministry forum, on all of our channels. You can visit our website at ministry forum.ca, for more resources keeping up with upcoming events and ways to connect with our growing community.
Until next time, may God's strength and courage be yours in all that you do, may you be fearless, not reckless, and may you be well in body, mind and spirit, and may you be that peace.